To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

But i think you are missing my point

Boys may well feel embarrassed or ashamed when someone is bullying them

But they SHOULDN'T feel that way

But it's ok for little girls to feel scared and ashamed of they are bunking up with a male bodied person? This is one point.

I have a question which has probably been answered here:

If trans girls are to be allowed into Guides on the basis that 'they are girls' ( ) then are trans boys not allowed in? Surely you can't have it both ways? I guess trans boys wouldn't necessarily want to go to guides, but are we in a place where females are being banned from Guides?

Anyhow, the point for me is that if girls are uncomfortable with sharing space with a male at the Girl Guides, then they shouldnt be forced to. That's it really. Girls feelings matter.

It's not just about whether this increases the risk of sexual harassment or assault or abuse.

It's that a female-only space offers opportunities which shared sex spaces don't, and that lots of girls and women really value this.
We could talk about sex, periods, pregnancy, sexuality, women's rights, feminism, gender stereotyping, all that stuff without boys. Where girls can feel less worried about boys and men watching them, where they can get changed with less embarrassment.
It is one of those much-lauded 'safe spaces' for girls & women that is now lost. As much as trans girls want to believe they are girls, they are not. So it changes the dynamic.

If GirlGuides want to change their mission, then let them be upfront about it, and also more accepting to trans boys. The double standard is shocking - if girls want to transition to boys, then they will be managed out of the Unit, away from their friends and support networks. So much for inclusivity and diversity.

I'm also pissed off with the rise of gender stereotyping which seems to be creeping back in. Bloody pink badges everywhere. Guides has lost it for me.

I received an email from Girlguiding this morning regarding this - I'm presuming all other parents did too? It was statement in response to media attention about their equality and diversity policy.

Apparently in a survey they did 86% of girls and young women are happy to accept transgender members into Girlguiding. I politely emailed them back and suggested that a similar survey for the parents of the girls they are safeguarding would be appropriate in this situation.

But just to add I don't think in a million years Girlguiding would dare to put out a survey to parents because I think (I could be wrong though) that the majority would be against their current policy and that would make things even more awkward for them.

Apparently parents shouldn’t be told anything at all because potentially they’re all bigoted transphobes and may put trans children at risk. However, changing policies to enable male bodied individuals who say they’re women access into a female single sex space whilst keeping it a secret is nothing to worry about and doesn’t put anybody at risk.

Peony nobody has suggested that transwomen or trans girls are sexual predators. But girls, biological females, have a right to privacy and dignity in situations where they are vulnerable - showering, sleeping, changing, confiding about puberty difficulties.

There's no way on this sweet earth my FIL could assault anyone - I still ain't getting dressed in front of him. And my MIL ain't getting dressed in front of my teenage boy.

Apparently though guides don't have a choice.

are trans boys not allowed in?

No. Trans-boys are managed out. Disproportionately affecting those with ASD I might add. So disablist too.

And Nosenugget what about the 14% who aren't?

I guess they don't count to GG do they.

Move over, girls who don't want to share a space with boys, one small space in their lives where males can't intrude.

Tough. Gah.

Interesting tweet from a FTM @AlixSmithSpidey here asking exactly that:

Are you going to withdraw my membership because I identify as male? I've been with girl-guiding since I was 5 years old. I realised something wasn't right with my body at 8 but didn't say anything until I was 15. I'm currently 16 and a young leader in training. I've helped girls explore their identity and figure out who they truly are and become more comfortable in their own bodies... Last time I checked that's more important than a vlogging badge. Sorry
@Girlguiding
just putting it out there...

titchy and nor do leaders.

I see the TRAs have been at the Wikipedia page again. Doesn’t matter how many times you change the Wikipedia, you still can’t change sex, any more than millions of children writing to Santa is going to make him real.

Just reading the other thread about the email, it looks like the 86% comes from a question about whether trans people shouldn't be discriminated against, which is a bit of a disingenuous way of phrasing it. Rather than a direct - how would you feel about GirlGuiding becoming a mixed sex organisation and us welcoming transitioning teenagers (boys and girls)...

I see the TRAs have been at the Wikipedia page again

Oh for goodness sake

Its not a toy people!!

Trans-identifying Guides such as AlixSmith definitely shouldn't be discriminated against by being made to leave.

I don't think the Guides do make transboys leave, they 'have a conversation about whether it would be appropriate'.

Are the Guides confusing 'distinguish between' with 'discriminate against' male and female people?

YANBU.

If you have a Y chromosome you are male. That is your sex and it is determined at conception.

If you feel that you are the other sex, it doesn't change your biology. If you feel you are a redhead, your natural hair colour will still be the same after you dye your hair. Your sex remains the same, even if you have surgery (and most transwomen do not).

You can change your "gender" because that isn't the same thing, it's a social construct. However, you are still the same sex as you always were.

Pink badges???

My daughter is due to join guides and rather than wonder if scouts would suit her better we may just do neither as part of the appeal was a single sex environment. She liked the skills based badges too...

It is worrying that the trans issue is not permitted often to be in debate, as the accusations of ' bigotry' come flying down and that is concerning as it means the policies connected with trans issues are not being heard and things are being pushed through quietly and quickly - that is not right for any topic of public debate. What is being totally overlooked is the feelings and experiences of girls -if my daughter ie goes to brownie camp and after a fun day happily playing with a new friend there, who is a girl to her ( and fair enough if that is how she presents ) and then when they go to the showers/ toilets she sees the girl has a penis, my daughter or any girl is possibly / likely to be confused and possibly a sense of hurt ( why didn't I know? ) I would not like my daughter to be away, and I to have no influence over how she processes that or if she is able to speak to someone.I would like to support her in that if she needed it. My daughter may shrug her shoulders and not be that interested ( fine) or she may somehow feel a bit different about that person ( also fine) as it is all a very new concept to her ( also fine).What concerns me , is as a parent, I am being denied the chance to fully support my child and the way the Girl
Guides has treated Helen Watts scares me as it suggests there is no open debate and I now have concerns on the integrity of the organisation. I just feel so sad that in an organisation that is about girls, should encourage and foster empowerment and strength of females - that the girls voices will not be heard. I think, if my daughter expressed that she didn't feel comfortable sharing a tent with a person who has a penis, and would prefer to be with other children without a penis, then she should be heard, and supported in this. She should not be made out to be a bigot, or wrong. This is not transphobic, I would welcome the opportunity to know about children in my childrens' life so that I can explain and support them in embracing all people - but I do not think that girls' rights to express opinion and need should be shouted down- and I think all females can related to that.

It seems ridiculous the way language is policed that we cant simply ask "does your guide unit admit boys/does it have any boys in it/will she be sleeping with boys and if so what is in place that she dkesnt have to share a tent with one."

Would she have to say "do you admit people with penises? I dont want to have to see a penis...?"

Are lesbian girls and leaders predators and an equal risk?

Don't you feel homophobic writing this nonsense? Your son is gay, is that right? Please don't equate lesbians with male predators. 98% of sexual violence is carried out by men.

Yup.

I don’t understand why trans is conflated so often with gay or lesbian. One is a mental condition and the others are preferences.

Is this not insulting to gay and lesbian people?

Agnes, it’s extremely insulting to gay and lesbian people. It’s just an attempt to get on the ‘oppressed’ bandwagon. The two have nothing in common whatsoever.

I wouldn't have a problem with it. DH used to help out at guides and brownies. There is a lot of hysteria around this issue.