To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

Any thoughts on the secrecy? Why this is being kept from parents?

I should think that "secrecy" is an attempt to stop any transphobia. That there is a concern that if the young person's privacy is breeched that they will face abuse of some nature.

I am sure that you already know this though and clearly just want the opportunity to ask " what about the privacy of the girls then".

@Allineedyoutodois Men and gay men working in a MIXED setting is completely different. How could a trans woman who has NEVER HAD A PERIOD relate to a girl going through puberty if she wants or needs to talk to a leader? Answer; they can't. It is far far more than trans rights. What about the rights of a vulnerable pubescent girl to have the ear of a leader who has the same sex organs as her and has been through puberty? You don't seem to understand. This is not purely about predatory behaviour. It about the CHILD'S RIGHTS. It is about a woman's only group that used to have women who went through female puberty, now having someone who wasn't born a female pretending to empathise with a pubescent teenage girl. What is it that you don't understand about that?

I feel very sad that there are some on here that only think about trans rights, and don't stop to even think about the rights of a female child.

When did trans rights over-ride girls rights?

I should think that "secrecy" is an attempt to stop any transphobia. That there is a concern that if the young person's privacy is breeched that they will face abuse of some nature

Why would you assume that the parents of the guides, or indeed the girls themselves, would be transphobic ? Have guides issued death threats to trans guides and said they should die in a fire? Have they been beaten up with baseball bats by a brown owl?

Have any guides been changed with hate crimes against trans guides ?

What proportion of rapes and secxual assualts have been perpetrated against trans guides by guides ? How many trans guides are murdered by guides ( or their parents) every week ?

Please link me to the stats. Otherwise I will assume that this is all prejudice and bigotry on your part against perfectly innocent guides .

I haven't read the whole thread (am part way through) but wanted to clarify something:

I am a Rainbow leader, and help out at Brownie and Guide residentials on occasion.

The most recent Brownie holiday I helped at, myself and the other leader present with her group were indeed sleeping in the same room as the Brownies. At times (when one of us needed the loo, which was across the path in another building) there was a single leader with those Brownies.

So for those saying "this never happens", it can, and it does.

I presume anyone with access to children and vulnerable people is police vetted and checked out. Would you feel the same, if it were a male leader instead of a trans female?

Why would you assume that the parents of the guides, or indeed the girls themselves, would be transphobic

I'm not saying that the parents or the guides will do anything but that once someone's status is made public who knows what could happen?

A young person is entitled to privacy. Whether you think they should be able to join the GG or not - they are still entitled to have their privacy maintained. This could be for any number of issues. Where do you draw the line in deciding that the right to privacy can be over ridden because of someone else's need to know? Just have a think about your own child. Do friend's parents have a right to know personal information about them?

Careful BrownPaperTeddy your misogyny is showing now as well as your homophobia. Say something racist and my bingo card is full.

You know nothing about me yet strange how you think that I am mysogynystic, homophobic and racist isn't it?

No wonder most people steer clear of these threads - anyone that doesn't agree 100% with is just subject to abuse.

@HairyLegs11 yes they are but a) men are more likely to commit sexual assault and more likely to abuse children and b) everyone who offends has a first offence and c) the parents THINK THE LEADERS ARE WOMEN. Yes, it's partly about safety, but it's also about honesty and dignity.

So can I just check, you have no proof at all of any transphobia ? You just want to put these theoretical risks over the proven risks that occurs when males are in female spaces, is that right ?

I'm not saying that the parents or the guides will do anything but that once someone's status is made public who knows what could happen

So the other guides should give up their human rights just in case?

A young person is entitled to privacy

Sorry can I just check - is that all young people Or just trans young people?

Where do you draw the line in deciding that the right to privacy can be over ridden because of someone else's need to know?

But it’s not privacy versus right to know. It’s privacy versus privacy and safety.

Privacy of one trans identifying young person or trans adult not to let anyone know their biological sex .

Versus privacy and safety of every other person in that guide company.

If everyone was male , that would be a hard decision to make. But when it comes to the rights of one Male over the rights of hundreds of thousands of girls - well that’s easy.

A young person is entitled to privacy. But not apparently a guide who does not want to shower or sleep with a male body.

More transphobia. Woohoo!

Would you feel the same, if it were a male leader instead of a trans female?

Yes because the safeguarding in Girlguiding is set up on the basis that it is a single sex organisation. This also means that the consent by Guides and their parents is on this basis too.

The problem here is that Girlguiding is making a fundamental change to the organisation, from a single sex organisation to a single gender one, ie for feminine people rather than girls, and in doing this they haven't consulted with volunteers and parents, they are not adapting their safeguarding protocols to this very different approach, and they are not notifying parents that things are now different so they can give informed consent.

Like so much in this area, the reality is obscured in the hope that people will be kept in the dark and won't object, well, they might at some point down the road, but it'll be a done deal by then.

A young person is entitled to privacy

Sorry can I just check - is that all young people Or just trans young people?
That is all young people.

I'm not saying that the parents or the guides will do anything but that once someone's status is made public who knows what could happen? It's a polite fiction that people wouldn't know unless someone is outed. Re GG public face, I was thinking this morning about Ratner's jewellery company. Gerard Ratner made one foolish remark at an after-dinner speech, and his company went bust. But no matter how many scandals there are, how many rapists in women's prisons, how many assaults in mixed toilets or changing rooms, nothing impacts on those in charge.

More transphobia. Woohoo!

Where?!

I'd definitely report any transphobic posts on here if I were you.

More transphobia. Woohoo!

Would you like to point out the transphobic posts. Would you like to actually join the debate, state your opinion and what led you to it. Just jumping in with an inane little sound bite then jumping off again makes it seem as if you're actually quite ignorant of the topic.

Is that what's known as 'plopping'? 😂

That is all young people.

So how do you ensure the female guide's right to sleep and shower separately to those with Male bodies, yet still include the trans girl who wants to share tent and bathroom with the other guides, yet who's trans status cannot be revealed?

Come on - it's all very well stating this is how it should be and everyone's got rights, but in the specific situation above what do you actually do in practice?

It's as if men (or at least some men) are highly insulted that women have noticed that men have penises. "Shhhhh don't pretend you notice the penis in the room, it's upsetting for the poor dear".

@salmonofwisdom What a narrow-minded comment. Clearly you haven't read any of the posts at all if you think this is about transphobia. Or, you suffer from childrightsphobia.

I rather like childrightsphobia as a reply to mindless transphobia! accusations.

Why do women and girls have to pretend along with the male bodied person? Shhhhhhh dont hurt their feelings! Just say they are a girl and no one dies.

On the subject of letting a "14 year old transgirl" sleep with your DD vs letting a "14 year old boy" and heading a bit into realms of whataboutery... can I just ask - what if the 14 year old boy just hasn't had his trans-epiphany yet?
What if he has a girlbrain but is currently unaware of it?