To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

Bringon Want to have a look at the residentials regulations please?
I have shared a sleeping space with girls.
If you have a sleepover in a church hall there is no choice.
I've shared a communal changing room at swimming with girls. Rainbows often need help changing.
I've shared rooms with other leaders I didn't know. And everyone can eff off with getting dressed in their sleeping bags. I do not want to share a room with a man and I shouldn't have to and neither should girls.
I've helped a girl who'd wet herself get changed (another girl was present).
The showers where we go camping have the tiniest rubbish curtains and nowhere to hang your clothes in the cubicle. Girls do take showers on camp (for a start, if you fall in dirty water you must take a shower for health reasons).

How many fucking threads like this do we need? This really is the worst thing about mumsnet

Nacho there are two on this issue. One in AIBU and one in Feminist Chat. Very different audiences.

YANBU OP

MrsJonSno as utterly batshit as this sounds, this is the current position.

Laws/policies designed to make the lives of transsexuals/people with gender dysphoria easier have been hijacked by predators.

Google:

David Challenor
Karen White
Jess Bradley
Carrie Grant
Jessica Whiting
Michelle Lewin

That’s just six off the top of my head. The list goes on and on.

I thought this couldn’t be possibly happening when I first read about it on here. Then I looked round twitter.......

How many fucking threads like this do we need? This really is the worst thing about mumsnet

As many as it fucking takes, to make the woke actually wake up and smell the bullshit, that lets men/boys into female spaces and puts women and girls dignity and safety at risk. Don’t like it? Tough? We’re not going to shut up. Giving women a voice is one of the BEST things about Mumsnet.

ThatIsNachoCheese

How many fucking threads like this do we need? This really is the worst thing about mumsnet

The threads will be needed until women's and girls' safety is considered as important as men's feelings.

I'm sorry you don't think the safeguarding of women and girls is important enough to warrant two threads, Nacho. Maybe you could find another forum more to your taste?

No wonder many girls are opting out of womanhood. The Guides could be a big part of addressing these issues if they remained single sex. It's a great shame they've abandoned that principle.

I sincerely Girl Guides have changed since I was one. The focus on maintaining stereotypes was huge - homemaker badge, childcare badge, learning to sew, sew on buttons, clean shoes, putting make up on, fashion shows etc

No discussions on challenging stereotypes, being strong women, challenging views on what being a woman means.

Has GG changed that much?

How many fucking threads like this do we need? This really is the worst thing about mumsnet

How many will it take before people realise that it is men with dark agendas that are 'advising' the girl guides and removing all boundaries for girls?

Has GG changed that much?

New badges: one of which is 'speaking out'.

Just like Helen did. Then she got sacked.

Not read all the thread but why on earth would it be a problem if a man was leading Guides?
There's male teachers, male scout leaders, male nannies, male nurses...... [hmm'] [

A man who has gone through gender reassignment is totally different to a man who is dressings as a woman.

You'd think so wouldn't you? But no, not according to the Equality Act 2010:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

A man "proposing to undergo" gender reassignment wouldn't even need to dress as a woman, never mind have hormones or surgical intervention, and still be considered to have the characteristic of gender reassignment.

It might not be a problem for a man to lead guides, if he identified as a man and used separate spaces. The concern arises when a man says 'I am a woman' which gives him the right to access all the same spaces as the girls.
Male teachers don't generally go into the girls toilets at school.

Not read all the thread try reading the thread. 🙄

Female rights could be ending soon. Nacho, does that really not concern you and why not?

Who’s talking about medical history?

Someone can self identify as female having had no medical treatment, and seen zero professionals about transitioning. People can self identity as non binary and be female once a week, and that should apparently be respected. I’m happy to use whatever pronouns people want and will respect them utterly, but where is the line when it comes to protecting children?

We have safeguarding laws and practices when it comes to women and children - single sex spaces exist because of the danger posed by some men to women and children.

Simply stating that you are female does not magically make you less of a risk than any other man. In fact, if you’re claiming to self identify as female when you don’t simply in order to access children, there’s a good chance you’re more likely to be a risk.

If men suddenly started saying “why am I excluded from women’s toilets? I’m not a rapist!” would you say “oh yes, ever so sorry to distrust you - come on in”? Of course you wouldn’t.

But apparently if they said “oh, but actually I’m a woman” we are supposed to be fine with it?

While fully respecting the difficulties faced by those with legitimate gender dysphoria, this is patently absurd and open to abuse.

I was a Rainbow leader many years ago and my daughter is now in Rainbows and the leaders always sleep in the same room as the girls. They tend to have sleep overs in church halls.

I am a Rainbow leader, have been for over 20 years, we do not sleep with the girls. No unit should be holding sleepovers in a hall where there is no option other than to share because leaders can not share with girls and young leaders cannot share with leaders or girls, even my daughter can't share with me on Guiding events!

drspouse Yes you may occasionally have to help a girl change but you should have another adult present, no adult in Guiding should ever be alone with children at any point, for the children's safety and their own, if you are a leader you really should know that, it's in the safeguarding policies.

Has GG changed that much? Yes, there is a whole new program out, new badges, new themes, it's changed a lot even just in the last few months.

No reason, I suppose, why men shouldn't be Guiders, but it's great for girls to see women in positions of leadership as they grow up. I went to a girls' secondary school. When I first started in the early 70s there there were only two men in the place. One was the caretaker, the other was the bursar. He left and was replaced by a woman. Every single teacher in the place was a woman. Every single one of them had either a degree or for Music, Art, Domestic Science and PE a teaching certificate from a specialist training college. No boys dominating the space, taking the lion's share of the teacher's attention. No stigma attached to being good at Maths and Science. No casual sexual assaults in the corridor. I feel very lucky with hindsight.

I feel that there are so many issues given as reasons as to why trans women and girls shouldn't be allowed to join GG, but most reasons could also apply to men and boys in everyday life

Name changes on DBS - anyone can change their name. Women frequently do when they get married. Safeguards are in place currently. IF it's decided to remove these safeguards then DBS will provide no protection whenever they are required

Adults providing intimate care - no adult, male or female, should provide intimate care, or even be on their own with a child of either sex. That is to provide protection for the child absolutely but also to protect the adult against accusation. Teachers in school are advised against being on there own with a student, to keep the door open etc. That is good practice.

My niece and nephews male headteacher hid a camera in the school toilets to film the kids, my friend was sexually abused by his male music teacher, my brother is 48 and his youth club leader was recently jailed for making indecent pictures of boys at his home.

But really this has nothing to do with this thread. In fact do this mean that we keep men away from anywhere that children may be? This thread is about trans women mixing with girls and yet some of the examples above are about men abusing boys - so insisting that men only volunteer with boys doesn't necessarily keep children safe.

Wanting to know if any trans women or girls are in the GG unit simply gives you that 1 piece of information. It doesn't stop the girls from being harmed by any number of other things - do you want to know if any girls have mental health issues that possibly could impact on your daughter? Maybe if they've ever taken drink or drugs?

Robust safeguarding has to be in place for all organisations and that includes schools, churches, youth groups, spirts clubs and anything involving children. Any adult intent on harming children could try to access any of these organisations. Surely the answer is to make all of these as safe as possible by eliminating the risk as far as possible. No adult allowed on their own with a child, of any sex, seems a good place to start.

Medical history doesn't have to be disclosed. There is no medical history for adults saying they feel like a woman/man today.

Self ID requires no surgery, hormone replacement or anything else.

What some of you aren't grasping, self ID also includes children. Horny teenage boys WILL be allowed into GG for residential if they SAY they are girls. They will then be able to sleep in the same room as others girls, one could easily be their girlfriend.

But even without a horny teen boy saying he's a girl, what about the girls? Why should they be forced to share their space with a person who has a penis?

This batshit idea will EXCLUDE a lot of girls. Many, many parents have concerns about mixed sleepovers in their own homes because they can see the possible ramifications of this. Those girls will no longer be able to attend.

Victims of sexual abuse will not want to go because this will have a massive impact on their mental health but fuck them and their MH, those bigots should just get over it and accept the boys with their girl penis. That is what you are saying to these girls when you are saying there is nothing wrong with this batshit policy.

Religious groups, those girls will no longer be able to attend because of the girl penis.

There will be more that I cannot think of.

Many people are objecting to SELF ID because they can see how SOME people will use the loopholes to their benefits. Whether it's the horny teen boy conspiring with his girlfriend to have sleepovers with the GG, school trips etc. Or abusers seeing this loophole, and let's be honest here, abusers don't just wake up on their 18th birthday and suddenly become abusers. And again I am not saying that Trans people are abusers. I am saying SELF ID gives abusers another way for abusers to get access to victims. Anything that allows this, I will object to every single time.

How long will it before schools are forced to change their policies with SELF ID residential trips, citing that the GG's are able to do this and how well it's going.

SELF ID as a whole needs to be looked at more closely to stop the piss takers abusing it, and deciding when they wake up if they are going to be called Philip or Pippa. Would this also mean that Philip/Pippa Brunce need to complete 2 DBS if he\she worked with vulnerable people?

The issue I have is that I wouldn't let my daughter share sleeping accommodation with a boy and would send her to guides assuming that it was single sex. The new guidelines state that she could be sleeping next to, and sharing amenities, with a male teenager and I wouldn't be told a thing about it. I'd like someone defending these policies to please answer what part of the statement 'I identify as a girl' makes my daughter immune to pregnancy, loss of privacy, embarrassment etc.

rainbowsandsmiles

So you are OK with a male teacher sleeping in the same room as a 6 year old and helping her get undressed?

And we have seen abusers take extraordinary lengths to gain access to victims in the past. Now they don't even have to do that. I mean, a convicted sex offender merely had to say he identified as a woman and he was given access to an entire prison full of captive potential victims. The idea that these policies wouldn't be abused when it's being made easier than ever would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Medical history doesn't have to be disclosed. There is no medical history for adults saying they feel like a woman/man today.

I've seen some posters state that thinking you are trans gender is actually a symptom of a mental illness or a mental illness in its own right. So you could be asking someone to disclose their medical history.

Many people are objecting to SELF ID because they can see how SOME people will use the loopholes to their benefits.

I agree. I think that this is the crux of the matter and I think this is where the answer lies - in closing the loopholes.

You will get many people disagreeing though and saying that isn't the only problem. That the problem is in anyone that was born with XY chromosomes being allowed into women's spaces regardless of having gender re assignment surgery even because in their view they can never be women.