Ungrateful f#cker!

[LostPuppy]

Am I being unreasonable?

Ok here's how it works.

I get up around 6.40 every morning and have a bath, shave and get dressed. Then around 7 I get the boys up, make their breakfast, make my own breakfast, empty the dishwasher, make my lunch, then get the 2 year old dressed, change his nappy and clean his and his elder brother's teeth and wash their faces. Whilst this goes on DW has a bath and makes the bed.

This morning I got delayed (putting the bins out) so didn't have time to change and dress DS2. When I said I wouldn't be able to do it, I thought I'd be helpful and put the breakfast dishes in the dishwasher, a 30 second job unlike changing and dressing that takes 5 minutes or more.

Rather than be grateful for this, DW sarcastically remarked "oh you've got time for that but not to get him dressed have you"!

Well frankly f#ck you was what I thought. I was running late and was trying to be kind, but all I get is abuse. I couldn't be much more helpful in the mornings. I am tempted to work to rule and just get myself ready for work rather that feed and dress the three of us.

Personally I wouldn't dream of criticising in such a manner if the roles were reversed and all I'd done was have a bath and made a bed. It hardly makes the person getting the children ready for school feel appreciated does it.

Another example of what lawyers might call "unreasonable behaviour" is this. Occasionally I'll forget to give DS2 his fish oil, but rather than say to him, "did dad give your IQ" and just give him a sachet if the answer is no, she'll be like "how many more times has this happened" and start a row in front of the boys.

I just feel like no matter what I do it isn't good enough. If DS1 has had porridge and made a bit of a mess she'll criticise me for not completely clearing up. If that was me I'd have thanked her in my head for feeding him and simply got out the kitchen roll or a sponge and in 10 seconds the mess is gone, but she'll seemingly seethe about this and give me a hard time for it

Am I being unreasonable not to expect abuse? Sounds to me like I'm being taken for granted.

This isnt to say that DW doesn't work bloody hard by the way! She cooks, cleans and generally parents whilst I am out at work. But the point is I often thank her for this and never criticise. Its a job I dont think I'd have the patience for. But if I think something isn't right I'll say something when the boys are in bed, not start a row in front of them!

Frankly I'm just whipped aren't I!

I think that there are three issues in your post:

1. division of labour - is it fair in your household? Do you need to reassess who does what? This generally needs to be done quite often.
2. fulfilment of tasks that either one of you has engaged to undertake - are you doing what you said you would do? This is actually very important, since people go onto automatic pilot at busy times (early in the morning) and get very stressed out by disruption and changes when they have a lot to accomplish in a short space of time.
3. appreciation of one another's efforts - are you making sure each person feels appreciated and respected for their contribution to the household?

I think your major complaint in this post surrrounded issue 2. Don't underestimate how important it is that your wife doesn't have to pick up the pieces where you left off - it will annoy her. If you feel that you have too much to achieve before going to work, renegotiate with your wife what you do. But don't just not do it.

I think you need to both have clear 'guidelines' as to who does what in the mornings. Have you explained to your wife how it makes you feel when she criticises you?

A lot of gatekeeping goes on with mothers. Sometimes they are unwilling to fully relinquish tasks (even though they don't actually want to do the taskk in the first place) and this unwillingness can be expressed as criticism.

Yes, they only have their little home domain to be king of hence they jealously preserve their reign over it. If they worked liked most mothers there wouldn't be these issues and she wouldn't be personally affronted if he didn't fold the clothes with the precise corners required or feeds the baby different foods than he does. It's this assumption mother is right and father wrong that is so appalling in many relationships and mostly caused by them not equally parenting and women staying at home. It's solved by them both working.

Xenia - can you think of any human problem that doesn't have an instant solution in both partners in marriage working?

My partner has an expression for "one size fits all" solutions - "le couteau suisse" (Swiss Army Knife).

That Xenia - she is the Swiss Army Knife of human dilemmas...

xenia my opinion on that is it's utter bollocks.Sorry but not everything is because someone is a SAHM.
Also I think a lot of working mums actually say they would love to afford to be a SAHM and some SAHM's would prefer to be working mums.Not eveerything comes down to this fact.SAHM I know are useless and worthless to you but guess what we are neither.
We do a good job and are happy in the main to do it.Please realise that just because you post this in response to any probs doesn't make it a fact of life.Please stop and think a little that maybe,just maybe,not all mums want to be away from their dc's for most of the day.I know I don't and to that end i even now HE mine.Also it has been repeatedly said that dc's are better off for having at least one SAHParent until age 5.
In the case here he feels that he is getting walked on and from what he posts I can understand this.

I do think that xenia has a point though. My MIL has never worked outside the home and has spent her life worrying about ironing shirts military style and not allowing dust to accumulate for longer than a nano-second.

And she moans constantly about having no time for herself because of her household duties, yet if my FIL chips in it isn't up to standard and he gets the sigh of doom directed at him!

I'm not saying though that work is the only answer though, any interest outside the home/children is a good thing.

Obimomkanobi.We all need a hobby or something but xenia answers almost all probs with this answer.Apparently she believes that SAHM's are not worth anything and are all enimies of womens lib.Don't know if you've seen her other posts but have a look and you'll see what we mean.

I've seen xenia's comments!! And I am a SAHM, and very happy I am too!

But sometimes, just sometimes, there is the occasional nugget of sense tucked away in all her rhetoric!

Talking is the answer, because you have to find a solution that works for you both and the DC.
DH does nothing in the house in the morning except go out and put the a/c on in the car before we all leave, (me, DH and DS). My morning would be far more unbearable if I had to get into my car when its 45 degrees outside with 80 humidity. He rocks!
Having said that I did work part time, now I'm a sahm. I really like it even though DS is 11. His friends think he's really cool because this is the only house where they get homemade cakes (not that other working mums/dads/carers dont bake). I empathise with the fact if a jobs worth doing do it properly, however my standards are so high I cant meet them therefore I dont. Housework is drudgery and lifes too short. I just tell DH and DS once every few weeks I am having a cleaning day, dont speak to me and be really nice to me as I hate it, hate it, hate it. We all know how it works for us in our family, its just part of our way of life now.
Hope you find something that works for your family. But you have to talk togther to get anywhere.
Best of luck, enjoy your bottle of wine and reach a mutally agreeable solution.

I totally agree with FrannyandZooey. The 'nothing I ever do is good enough' is a cry I've heard from my dh and several others and it is valid BUT the general irritation stems from something deeper. I am speaking from experience. Talk to her about how you feel, ask her to stopping criticising you but maybe ask her if she needs some more time to herself - have you considered whether you have enough time out as a couple as well?. The nagging and bickering is a symptom of things but it doesn't mean necessarily you don't love and value each other underneath. Working to rule is a really bad idea and you will end up making things much worse. I would FLIP if my dh did that.
Her working is not the answer though Xenia, I find it much easier when I am not competing with my dh for who has to take time off to be with sick children/take them on nursery trips etc etc. I do still work part-time and enjoy it but sometimes I would just like to sit back and say ok, you work and my area will be home, I will feel less guilty about taking time for myself when you are here and won't take it out on you so much.....

The Xenia-one-size-fits-all solution is particularly inappropriate here. Xenia's solution to marital friction is basically to cop out of marriage altogether by dividing all labour necessary for family function down the middle.

The Xenia way you gain absolutely no economies of scale, no task specialisation, no negotiation. Why marry? You're on your own.

Well it's what most couples choose to do Anna so it's not exactly a bizarre suggestion. And it's not really as you describe it. You take it in turns to take to school or get home on time being practical and sensible about it. Child off sick which parent has the most important meeting that day etc as we see mumnetters and their other halves doing very day of the week.

Nor do you say you wash half that plate and I will do the other one but you might divide tasks like we did - before work my husband put on the dishwasher and washer (for the cleaner to empty later) and I got the school bags ready and when they were born I fed the twins etc first thing and he got breakfast for the older three chidlren. So yes even working couples divide tasks up all the time rather than share them but none of us want to get back to a situation where men can't cook or wash or clean houses and women do all that. That's a ridiculous position and very bad for women and families.

Reaching informed joint decisions on equitable division of labour in a couple is a critical part of marriage.

Advocating that equitable division of labour can only be achieved by two full-time working partners and that that is a non-negotiable starting position is very limiting and places severe constraints on family life.

Hate to interrupt the SAHM/WOHM debate but a fresh take on the OP's issue:

LostPuppy, I recalled that your partner once lashed out at your
son for being ungrateful. When I searched for that thread I also came
across your statements on the McCanns and Controlled Crying.

Would it be fair to say that both you and your partner are strong-willed, outspoken people?

Friction between dominant partners seems inevitable, a case of taking the rough with the smooth.

And as for this friction manifesting itself in front of the kids:
You are who you are. Can you really hide that from your children?

It's not a crime to passionately speak one's mind!

DaddyJ - don't agree. It is an important part of growing up to learn to act with self-control and parents need to set an example to their children.

Much, much better for the OP to properly analyse what's going on and have a reasoned, calm discussion away from the children in order to resolve the negotiation equitably and without resorting to impassioned emotional outburst.

It's only housework, after all...

In theory, yes, Anna.
And because neither of us actually knows LP and his wife
it is difficult to really tailor our advice to their reality.
So apologies, LP, if I am barking up the wrong'un.

Reading his posts, though, I do get the impression that they are both
very passionate in their views.

Even if they have one or two dozen reasoned discussions it might not
remove the underlying cause of their outbursts, if that cause happens
to be their personalities.

Maybe they should try to put their passionate personalities aside and try to make a dispassionate analysis of the division of resources and labour in their household? Cold hard facts often speak volumes, especially when it comes to boring household tasks...

Anna
Agree with you. I have been through counselling to deal with my outbursts of anger and discovered that a lot of the root cause was my tendency to be perfectionist and expect other people to be perfect - most of which seems to have stemmed from a lack of emotion from my mother as a child and coming from a high achieving background. I have now toned down the way I react to things (most of the time ) and am less critical of my dh's efforts because I understand more about what makes me so angry and I can stop it getting to that point. However I am still a passionate person and so is my dh. Children get so upset by their parents arguing in front of them, or in earshot. It is one to be avoided.

petitfilou - yes, I definitely agree that parents shouldn't get upset and vent anger or burst into tears in front of their children.

I also think that, once you have got into practice (probably away from the children) it is excellent to have calm, reasoned conversations about difficult issues in front of them. A wonderful example for life.

In this case, counselling sounds a bit over the top.

What we do know about LP's wife is that she can be very critical and impulsive.
What we know about LostPuppy is that he has no qualms about expressing his
opinions - however controversial - in a bold and forthright manner.

That much we do know. Hence my advice: Be yourself, LP.
Your children are unlikely to get traumatised.
More likely become fierce members of the debating society!

Different styles. Calm reasoned discussions are fine (in fact, lostpuppy, have you managed to have a sit down with your dw), but that does not mean that for whatever reason, partners do not occasionally lash out at each other in irritation, during a tense moment, especially if one party is more emotional.

A lot of cultures are more passionate than the garden variety Brit - it is ok to have a minor skirmish and then make up in front of the kids. It is keeping it real.

I think lostpuppy wants less conflict in front of the children, though. Which means, he needs to find out whether his dw's kneejerk criticism is just a one-off or a symptom of a larger problem.

LP may help in the mornings, more so perhaps than most men. On the other hand, would most men refer to their wife as an ungrateful f**ker? I would prefer to have a relationship that was loyal, even in the shit times, rather than a relationship with someone who was orderly and helpful on the exterior but at root rather disloyal and not on the same team.

lostpuppy - will you come and live with me? You sound like a wonderful dad - your post does make DW sound a little ungrateful yes. BUT in her defense, i am much the same, DP gets up, does the DW (from the night before!) sorts out DDs bottle and brings it up to me, while we both lay in bed!!! Sometimes when the bottle is a long time in coming i get impatient. So, thankyou for posting, i think im a pretty ungrateful fecker too TBH, but it is so easy to get into a routine. If DP is going to work later, he also makes my breakfast and makes me coffee too. I too work sodding hard all day but i only have the one DD and i really dont know how people cope with more than one, really i dont. Maybe you should just suggest some different roles in the morning. Baths are a bone of contention in this house just now too, massive row at the weekend because DP was wanting a bath, my comment - "lucky you!", i was feeling sorry for myself and thought i wanted a bath. So, actually, your wife sounds a whole lot more grateful than i am. LEM makes mental note to self to be less self absorbed in future.

Yes, from what LP has posted on both threads
I think his main concern are the kids.

Now that is a very interesting question:
How much conflict should children witness?

Experiencing heated arguments occasionally AND their resolution is quite healthy.
Violent altercations on a regular basis are obviously not healthy,
that's where the counselling should come in.

Blimey, LP, just read some of the posts, i bet you wish you never started this! I think MN is a good place to rant about partners, i would do so about mine but of course he is perfect, yeah right, just like me . Why oh why oh why does every thread that happens to include a SAHM mum have to be hijacked!!!! I do think you should talk to DW, i imagine if you point out her behaviour, or show her my post explaining what a lazy bitch I AM, then she will think, bugger me - this isnt a fair divide. You are right about arguing in front of the children though, i hate that.