Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

Ironically Commomwealth citizens were able to vote in the EU referendum - no matter how long or how short a period they had been in the UK and whether or not they actually contributed to the UK economy - whereas EU citizens who loved here (no matter how long) were not, shows how stupid the vote was.

So I'd have been able to vote even if I hadn't been naturalised when I was a child So I am that horrible thing: a non British born Brit Scot with strong opinions

Contrast that with the Indyref where anyone who lived in Scotland and was on the electoral register, no matter where they came from, got to vote. Yes, there were grumblings from Scots who'd left - but it was part of the civic (and not ethnic) nationalism principles behind the vote.

I came across Polish people when I was out canvassing for Yes who'd been told by Labour No campaigners ahead of me that they'd be "sent home" the day after the vote if Yes won (I disabused them of that scaremongering: the Scottish Government had already said both that it wanted to stay in/re-join the EU and that as a country we would welcome more immigration as we need it in the White Paper that was produced in advance of the Referendum strange concept that )

puzzled thanks for adding the nuance in there.

But don't forget Puzzled the Council is made up of elected governments so it is a democratic body.

Also unanimity on some Council votes was implemented to protect individual states from being 'bullied'. Can't remember the details but I think the U.K. pushed for this.

Democratic does not mean the way it's done in the U.K. . Many governmental decisions are carried out by civil servants or unelected cabinet members in various countries around the world. The US cabinet is unelected. It's still a democracy though.

I keep asking the leavers to explain which part of Macron's comment they think was referring to Theresa May or the British people

Why refer to "the leavers" as a group? I don't imagine I'm alone in realising that Macron was referring to neither of those things, but then I hope I'm capable of considering what someone actually said, rather than what I thought they did

I had to smile at Macron's reported views about a French vote post-Brexit though; I wonder if he feels they might worry about an increased bill?

As a concept the French might say they want to leave the EU, however if it came to an actual vote, and assuming there are no red buses the practicality will change things somewhat, and having watched the UK sink beneath the waves would be a further incentive to think hard.
The mentality of the French is also a bit different to the English.

Yeah the French like to moan but ultimately they know which side their bread is buttered.

the Council is made up of elected governments so it is a democratic body

That's perfectly true - and is also why I'd hope they'd be trusted to make a majority decision, rather than forced into something very different by a body which isn't elected at all

YeOldeTrout I also agree about the demographics of the leave vote, though I'm not entirely convinced of the validity of the some dying/turning 18 thing. Though no expert, it seems to me to assume that the 18-25 group would turn out in vast numbers, and also that views aren't likely to change as folk age and gain greater life experience - neither, to my mind, immovable facts

Why refer to "the leavers" as a group? I don't imagine I'm alone in realising that Macron was referring to neither of those things

Well perhaps you could point that out to the OP, who seems to be struggling hard with the concept.

(When her/his/its next shift begins tomorrow morning, naturally.)

I'm not sure that the old adage of people getting more right wing as they age is true any more - the 2017 GE seemed to show that trend slowing down.

Views do change, of course, but I find the 'folk gain greater life experience = folk will vote for a right wing party' is incredibly patronising, as if being right wing equates to being right.

I'm definitely on the old side and I don't see myself getting more right wing at all. I'm still a hardcore feminist leftie. Albeit one who can't stand the current Labour party, but that is an irrelevance.

I don't think that every old person who dies will be a Leave voter nor that every young person reaching voting age will be a Remain voter.

But the analysis that was done was based on the proportions of the respective age groups that were Leave/Remain. So statistically that means that by January, Remain would win. (it was March, but they're now saying January - not sure why it's been brought forward unless the problems of the NHS means the death rate has gone up ).

FWIW, my very healthy 81 year old dad is a vociferous Remain (and Indy) voter. Fortunately he comes from a long lived family, so I'm hoping he will be around for up to 20 more years (his Danish aunt died at 101) .....he wants to see Scottish independence in his life time

And my ds turned 18 a couple of weeks ago and is a Remain and Indy supporter

Nor me, pointy; on most things I'm a genuine centrist, and maybe I put it badly about the demographics. It's really not that I think either extreme will move completely to the other, more that IME those extremes often (though by no means always) move more to the centre with age and experience

The mentality of the French is also a bit different to the English

Yep, you're not wrong; I happen to adore the place and its people, but there's no denying it's different. It's always fun to watch the bemusement of American friends in particular, when they cross 20-odd miles of water and see so much change

{Labour party, but that is an irrelevance.}
Nice observation!

We joined the EU solely for Trade, gradually they have taken over everything. They’re a bunch of lazy, greedy unelected idiots and the sooner we’re out the better, I did actually vote to remain but the way the likes of Junker, Tusk and Macron behave i’m so glad we’re out. We were a great Country before and we can be again.

Another one, welcome!

Time to post this again, I see 🙄

Another 'illiterate' has arrived.
UK MEPs were participating in 'taking over everything', so it is WE not THEY.
Mr Junker, Tusk and Macron are doing their jobs representing ALL in Europe. Who the hell knows what any of the UK government are up to but there is a VERY good chance it won't make the lives of UK citizens better.

Didn't UK vote to stay in EEC for free movement of capital & services too? not just goods, iirc

Free movement of labour ensures comparable standards so that countries don't undermine each other

1titsupermarket you are precisely the reason why people would vote to leave if there was another vote, I have half an idea you live in London. You’re rude and obnoxious, get your History Books out. The illiterate one’s off for a 🍷

We joined the EU solely for Trade, gradually they have taken over everything.

Please give a specific example of something the EU has "taken over" that is not to do with trade.

And whole you're at it, please explain how the EU has taken over the NHS, our public transport system, MI5, our voting system and our educational system.

(Well you did say "everything".)

pointythings did you see that the highest percentage of Labour members in favour of people's referendum was the 60+ group at 90%?
Made this old lefty smile.

The people voted to leave, we are leaving. The Remoners lost, get over it.

Same old song, still boring. At least the last one could vaguely spell.

missclimpson no, I didn't see that. Makes me smile too.

You know what, I'm definitely not coming back to the UK until the generation that voted en masse for Brexit have popped their clogs. I just don't want to pay for their pensions and healthcare. Ever.

The people voted to leave, we are leaving. The Remoners lost, get over it.

It's OK, Donny's here to show us little women how to do the debating thing

Donny, is that you?