to think our children will not forgive us if we don't sort Brexit out

[HurricaneFloss]

DFiL voted Leave. He's not thick and he had his reasons but, to be frank, he's 80 and not going to have to live with the consequences long term. Especially, if the NHS don't manage to stockpile his multiple medications in the event of a No Deal.

AIBU to think we all need to kick up an almighty stink to ensure that our Government makes a deal that will protect our children's futures - even if that means remaining. Jacob Rees Mogg and his ERG buddies predict it could be 50 years for the UK to see the benefits of leaving the EU. That's too late for my DD.

Austerity has damaged enough lives, we can't let Brexit do more harm. It's no good shrugging and saying "Leave won". If this isn't sorted out there will be no winners.

The Chinese have a saying about things that come together will one day fall apart. In reference to political borders and unions. I forget the exact wording.

There's the story about the Chinese Premiers reply when asked in 1972 by a US journalist what he thought the effects of the French Revolution were ...

It's a little too soon to tell.

(I'm just going to leave this [1] here )

Geography tends to play a huge role

One book everyone should read ...

www.amazon.co.uk/Prisoners-Geography-Everything-Global-Politics/dp/1783961414?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Even if 'lines on a map' matter to us, and the success of GREAT BRITAIN alone is our primary objective, then it makes no sense to voluntarily cut ourselves off from the (second) 'empire' which we've formed.

Is it?

I thought for many it was about getting through the day without your kids killing each other, having enough food on the table and having a roof over your head.

Everything else is a luxury. Including political opinions and a sense of patronism.

Food and work rather than patrotism worked for the nazis.

Conversely no cake and too much literal shit did for Louis.

Loyalty to Great Britain didn't work out too well for those on the wrong side of the American war of Independence too. Taxation without representation and all that.

Is it?

I'm not sure how to take that? I said 'Even if 'lines on a map' matter to us, and the success of GREAT BRITAIN alone is our primary objective'.

I was addressing the (paid) 'leaver' 'opinion', rather than voicing something I ever have to think about.

Loyalty to Great Britain didn't work out too well for those on the wrong side of the American war of Independence too.

I wonder if there are still traces of that split today ? Some New England families never being completely accepted as "Americans" ?

This is the thread that keeps on giving!

I think people over think where these movements and motivations come from.

More often or not, the sale of hope against a system that is not working on the most basic of levels, is what creates tipping points.

The Chinese will tell you all about keeping a certain percentage of the people happy.

The Arab spring was interpreted by westerners as about democracy, but owed more to a desire for dignity and hope for new opportunities.

All you have to do is harness that discontent for your own political ends.

Spoiler: The EU ref, wasn't about the EU.

All you have to do is harness that discontent for your own political ends.

Rinse and repeat until you have a war, or a revolution.

The Arab spring was interpreted by westerners as about democracy, but owed more to a desire for dignity and hope for new opportunities.

I expect we both remember that for the last 50-ish years the rhetoric was always that Arabs aren't ready for democracy.

I’m under 40....

I expect we both remember that for the last 50-ish years the rhetoric was always that Arabs aren't ready for democracy.

I think that remark should be prefaced by the phrase "until the oil runs out"

So, history is important, and lines on the map are important. Funny how it is a precise period of history corresponding to a particular set of lines on a map, which are the only ones fulfilling the criteria for importance.

Some bits of history are just, what, too old: like when Great Britain was several different warring Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, or when the Plantagenets also ruled much of France making one big nation? Other bits, well, too new to be proper history right, that’s why there’s something unnatural about a union of European nations?

No, the only true unit of national identity with the Goldilocks amount of history and the natural size for a country is... drumrolll... C’mon, give me a clue?

So, history is important

From these forums, not to Brexiteers

and lines on the map are important.

From these forums, everything to Brexiteers.

Elements, you really make me laugh.

My great-grandfather (paternal/paternal line) was given British nationality as being 'Russian'. His wife was on their marriage certificate as 'Russian'. Family history is that he was Polish and we don't know about her. My grandfather told his second family that he was Hungarian! Personally I think probably Belarus(-ish) but it's all just those 'lines on a map' again isn't it?

So anyway I'm British, born and bred. Lines on a map mean nothing to me though. Doing the right thing is all-important.

Thanks Fishes You know the best part? I never did any of this British history at school - it isn’t too much of an exaggeration to say I’ve gleaned this stuff from watching Horrible Histories with my DC. Yup, that’s right, primary school kids watching TV could have more in depth knowledge of history than Leavers posting on here 🤣

I’m under 40....

So what?

“A wise man makes his own decisions. An ignorant man follows public opinion.” – Chinese Proverb

One for our times?

I have learnt more history out of pure curiosity than I did when I did it as part of my degree.

Formal education made it, all to often, somewhat dry and dull.

Which is why horrible histories is amazing.

Rtb

Yes I’m sure that kind of chinese proverb was a great comfort during the last hundred years or so of authoritarian rule in China

Fishesaplenty

Glad we agree doing the right thing is important

Assume you now repent your remain views!

I love Horrible Histories, I'm not too sure that it's all 100% factually correct but it certainly makes us all look more at the more widely-accepted 'facts'.

After all, I think we can all probably find recently-written 'mainstream' history that doesn't quite fit with what we know. 'History is written by the victors' after all.

Maybe the internet has changed that a bit but the way governments are re-writing current facts tells me that it's still a valid statement.