to think our children will not forgive us if we don't sort Brexit out

[HurricaneFloss]

DFiL voted Leave. He's not thick and he had his reasons but, to be frank, he's 80 and not going to have to live with the consequences long term. Especially, if the NHS don't manage to stockpile his multiple medications in the event of a No Deal.

AIBU to think we all need to kick up an almighty stink to ensure that our Government makes a deal that will protect our children's futures - even if that means remaining. Jacob Rees Mogg and his ERG buddies predict it could be 50 years for the UK to see the benefits of leaving the EU. That's too late for my DD.

Austerity has damaged enough lives, we can't let Brexit do more harm. It's no good shrugging and saying "Leave won". If this isn't sorted out there will be no winners.

Yes I've noticed lots of goal posts being moved. It's gone from immediate benefits with no downside to benefits in 50 years, when most of us are DEAD.

Which bits of the Maastrict treaty didn't you like Sunny ?

Think of the Brexit opportunities, sunny uplands and the easy deal with the EU we were going to get. You know the Norway style Deal Johnson and Gove rabbited on about...

... Yes THAT Brexit.

The imaginary unicorn one

Yes I've noticed lots of goal posts being moved.

Yeah, go back two years, and not a single leave voter was saying: 'look its going to be fucking awful for fifty years but then it will be brilliant.'
In fact, most of them said, 'It's going to be great - right now.'
Now, we're expected to believe that half the country thought that was an excellent plan?

It's gone from immediate benefits with no downside to benefits in 50 years, when most of us are DEAD.

Plus the interesting notion that the possibility of disrupted medical supplies or food rationing does not constitute a "downside".

I think the Brexiteers have sold a rhetoric about short term pain for very long term gain. The gain has been sold as purposefully vague you notice.

But it is a new rhetoric. They really weren't saying it two years ago.

And yes, they don't like to go into details of either the pain or the gain.

Slogans, yes! Details, no.

Unicorns for great grandchildren though!

This whole thread misses a massive point

Let’s say the worst fears of those on these threads come true - how can it be in our national interest that we are so at the mercy of what is essentially a foreign body for our day to day survival?

Now I know that no country is self sufficient in areas like food and energy, but how can it make sense that we are so utterly dependent on an outside body such as the eu?

One gets the sense that this is last chance for an exit - after this there would be no getting off the eu bus and how is that either practically sensible or democratic?

Remainders are like heroin addicts - they blame the absence of the drug, not the addiction

The scale of sorting out rationing also involves planning and infrastructure to a degree which we do not have time for and the man power for. At the start of WWII we had both man power and organisation.

The UK civil service increased from 200,000 to 1,200,000 to support the war effort, and numbers remained high (>800,000) up until the early 1970s. We are at half that number now.

Now I know that no country is self sufficient in areas like food and energy, but how can it make sense that we are so utterly dependent on an outside body such as the eu?

because it made a lot of money for the country.

Remainders are like heroin addicts - they blame the absence of the drug, not the addiction

More like steroids ... which the rest of the world is also taking. I'm sure there will be a lot of admiration for competing "clean", but generally coming last doesn't win any prizes.

Always best to blame the consequences of the UK voluntarily and immediately withdrawing from 40 years worth of treaties (the creation of which the UK fully participated in) on “the nasty EU”.

Mother

But the fact we can’t really leave - even if we wanted to - is becoming clearer and clearer. We are too far gone down the eu road

So how come I can - ostensibly at least - help vote out the current govt but I can’t see us changing our ‘trading bloc’ provider, even if that is my democratic wish?

And you can’t have it both ways - either we have an ‘eu dependency problem’ (medicines etc) or we don’t!

If we do we are dependent - unhealthily so

i utterly dependent on an outside body such as the EU

See, that's interesting right there.

As we are currently members of the EU, me being a traitorous unpatriotic Remaniac and all, to me that makes the EU not an "outside body". Any more than, I dunno, a resident of Haringey thinks that Greater London is an "outside body."

God damn, where did that "i" come from and what happened to my formatting?

‘eu dependency problem’

If my cabbages are grown in Lincolnshire and I live in Nottingham, does that mean I have an unhealthy dependency problem?

The elements

But that then takes us straight back to the sovereignty question - why is there a need for a ‘decider’ beyond Westminster

I will be told that we never ceded sovereignty but there is more than one way to lose national autonomy - many of the ‘bad predictions’ on this thread are examples of exactly that

The elements

Cabbages to Nottingham from lincs ignores the uks history as a western nation state

I'd like to know why 'the UK will suffer' is Project Fear, but 'the EU will collapse' isn't, please.

Also, not sure if it's been posted, but have you seen this, William Rees-Mogg's 1997 book 'The Sovereign Individual'? Explains why Rees-mogg Junior is putting his money away in Ireland and is very relaxed about No Deal.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alastair-campbell-resist-rees-moggs-brave-new-world-1-5654889

an outside body such as the eu?

We are still members of the EU, so it can't yet be called an outside body. Or are you going to pretend that we never ever had any say? We never appointed commissioners, never had representatives on any EU body? However, once we are an outside body, do you really want to be dependent on the USA or China for a deal? There is a fat chance of either of them giving us a seat at the table, and allowing us to help make their laws. Which we are/were able to do with the EU, when we could be arsed to do so, that is.

Mother

I’m not complaining and I don’t think the bad predictions will come to pass.

My point was that such bad predictions show how much we are locked into the eu project - an unhealthy reliance upon a foreign organisation