to think our children will not forgive us if we don't sort Brexit out

[HurricaneFloss]

DFiL voted Leave. He's not thick and he had his reasons but, to be frank, he's 80 and not going to have to live with the consequences long term. Especially, if the NHS don't manage to stockpile his multiple medications in the event of a No Deal.

AIBU to think we all need to kick up an almighty stink to ensure that our Government makes a deal that will protect our children's futures - even if that means remaining. Jacob Rees Mogg and his ERG buddies predict it could be 50 years for the UK to see the benefits of leaving the EU. That's too late for my DD.

Austerity has damaged enough lives, we can't let Brexit do more harm. It's no good shrugging and saying "Leave won". If this isn't sorted out there will be no winners.

Danelaw?

Britain is a single nation state

Not for very long - and not for much longer if we mess this up.

United Ireland, farewell Scotland etc.

England stands alone in terms of the (waning) support for Brexit.

How ironic that a process aimed at asserting 19th Century "sovereignty" could end up rupturing the United Kingdom.

Yes geography and politics are an historic arse to Brexit ideology.

Cognitive dissonance is a must.

Danelaw

(from memory)

"...but - and it's been shown again and again.
Once you've paid the Dane-geld; you never can get rid of the Dane."

Do I win a Nigel Farage star for quoting Kipling .

Same time tomorrow: The White Mans Burden

Danelaw?

No, I think we need to stick at 'We are Normandy' don't we? If my second year History teacher was to be believed England became part of Normandy in 1066. Continental Normandy being invaded by the French wouldn't change that (if badly-remembered history lessons and Game Of Thrones are to be believed) so as far as I'm concerned 'we are Normandy'. Or was it Bergundian?

are you playing Mornington Crescent?

This all still sounds like hippy dippy one world Shoite

We aren’t one world - we are a small (albeit wealthy) country that has sold its soul to the eu devil.

In its turn, the eu exists to solve the problem of whether France or Germany is the dominant continental power. Britain was always peripheral to that and we should be peripheral to the eu

Why have we become so dependent on a ‘trading bloc’ - we shouldn’t be dependent on so much with them as you all lament we are. Thank god we didn’t adopt the euro too

Why have we become so dependent on a ‘trading bloc’

Because we suddenly realised in the 70s that we didn't have an empire we could exploit any more.

There was an excellent BBC2 documentary (is there any other kind) a few years back with the rather stentorian Robert Bartlett about The Normans, noting that they are originally Norsemen (Vikings) that decided Yorkshire was a bit to lah-di-dah for them, and sailed on until they hit France. Where they promptly annexed part of it, and not to be outdone by their English cousins, settled down for centuries of baiting the locals.

Which suggests that if an Englishman was to imagine how the Normandy and France fit together, a good place to start would be Yorkshire and England.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00schjq

Once again, Brexiteers lack of interest in history seems strange, given how important they like to say it is.

are you playing Mornington Crescent?

It's an even year, so ... Tooting Broadway.

We aren’t one world

Science - admitted terribly overrated - would beg to differ.

Fishesaplenty

Why do folk like you hate this country so much

Dgrossetti

You know what I meant you pedant

Why do folk like you hate this country so much

Hmm. Your evidence for that? Go on, one thing that I've said, ever.

Dgrossetti You know what I meant you pedant

I hoped I didn't know what you "meant", because I hoped no one was that ignorant in 2018.

From "Ghost in the machine" by The Police. 1982.

It's a subject we rarely mention
But when we do we have this little invention
By pretending they're a different world from me
I show my responsibility

The third world breathes our air tomorrow
We live on the time we borrow
In our world there's no time for sorrow
In their world there is no tomorrow

Lines are drawn upon the world
Before we get our flags unfurled
Whichever one we pick
It's just a self deluding trick

I don't want to bring a sour note
Remember this before you vote
We can all sink or we all float
'Cause we're all in the same big boat

Fishesaplenty

Your tired ‘empire was exploitative’ blah is reason enough. Is Brexit our come uppence then?

Dgrossetti

You and I have utterly opposing world views. You see it as you would like the world to be, I see it as it actually is

Dgrossetti You and I have utterly opposing world views. You see it as you would like the world to be, I see it as it actually is

Ah, so there's no point trying to change it then ?

Oddly defeatist for someone who claims to relish the challenges of Brexit.

Wasn't there the time when certain people fucked off to Europe because of religious persecution in England. Then they came back and helped revolutionise religion here with translated bibles which helped the population of the Church of England. And then perscuted all the dirty Europe loving Catholics.

Or the time when the would be King Charles II fucked off to Europe to avoid his head being chopped off like his Daddy. Charlie The Sequel then sponged money off his French cousin Louis on the promise of turning Catholic so he could fight the Dutch. To be fair to him, he did. On his deathbed.

Point being, that England has been very dependent on Europe at various times. Our history would be very different without it.

Why do we like to forget all this?

Oh yes.

Get a cigar and quote some stuff about beaches and fighting. And throw some Spitfires about.

Quote as much song verse as you like

Lines on maps and national identity matter to people. Rejection of remain says that if nothing else

RTB

reminds me of Stewart Lees beautifully constructed joke about Islam in response to people telling him to "have a got at the Muslims".

I just did
Not like that, not where you have to know stuff. We meant make fun of their hats

I'm still waiting for an exception where a Brexiteer actually knows their history. I wouldn't mind, but it's quite an easy bar to clear since hearing one Brexiteer wondering why we let the Polish into Britain after fighting them in WW2.

Personally I think that the people who seem intent to wreck this country for the next 5,10, 20 or 50 years must be folk who 'hate this country so much'.

It seemed to have taken us from 1947 to the early 70s to realise that without the opportunity to continue oppressing a third of the world we'd need to do something else if we wanted to continue being a great nation. We joined the EU and shaped it towards being an 'empire' that we had some degree of control over, to partially replace the empire which we'd controlled absolutely, but lost. Without any 'empire' that we're involved with we're just a small island close to an 'empire' hoping to pick up a few scraps of their table.

Britain is 'Great' but what has always made it 'Great' is being at the centre of an empire, or a network of co-operative nations - formerly the British Empire and now the EU. After Brexit we'll be at the centre of nothing.

So who is it who hates the country?

Lines on maps and national identity matter to people

Of course. That said, I'd really rather have enough food to life comfortably, clean water, and a healthcare and social system which looks after the most vulnerable amongst us before a blue passport and line in the channel. And my determination is the best possible way to bring that about is (for now) remaining in the EU. I guess if you don't care about any of those things then maps, borders and passport colours are as good a substitute as anything else.

The Chinese have a saying about things that come together will one day fall apart. In reference to political borders and unions. I forget the exact wording.

The assumption is that its the EU that is about to cease to exist. It could be. It could equally be the UK.

The Chinese realised that lines on maps might mean things, but they also were not the be all and end all.

Geography tends to play a huge role. Its noticeable that in recent political history the borders that are most problematic are those that don't follow natural boundaries.

Also see how much lines met on a map to ethnic Germans in the nazi era. They simply attempted to redraw the map...

Its all bollocks. Power and politics are funny

Lines on maps and national identity matter to people. Rejection of remain says that if nothing else

No, they matter to some people - not so much to those aged under 40 or over 75 however.

Even if 'lines on a map' matter to us, and the success of GREAT BRITAIN alone is our primary objective, then it makes no sense to voluntarily cut ourselves off from the (second) 'empire' which we've formed.