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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think our children will not forgive us if we don't sort Brexit out

999 replies

HurricaneFloss · 20/09/2018 13:25

DFiL voted Leave. He's not thick and he had his reasons but, to be frank, he's 80 and not going to have to live with the consequences long term. Especially, if the NHS don't manage to stockpile his multiple medications in the event of a No Deal.

AIBU to think we all need to kick up an almighty stink to ensure that our Government makes a deal that will protect our children's futures - even if that means remaining. Jacob Rees Mogg and his ERG buddies predict it could be 50 years for the UK to see the benefits of leaving the EU. That's too late for my DD.

Austerity has damaged enough lives, we can't let Brexit do more harm. It's no good shrugging and saying "Leave won". If this isn't sorted out there will be no winners.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 26/09/2018 09:31

hence the demand for the vote in the first place.

There was virtually no public demand for a vote. Polls consistently showed that less than 10% of the population thought about the EU. It was entirely Cameron's way of trying to deal with the right wing of the Tory party.

If there had been public demand, where were the marches with 50,000 or 100,000 strong that we have now seen against Brexit?

Peregrina · 26/09/2018 09:32

I was referring to our contributions to science, technology, innovation, music, the arts, education, research, women’s rights, medicine, engineering and democracy.

Nearly all now threatened by Brexit. But we have to 'get behind Brexit'. I have to go out, otherwise I would elaborate further.

LEELULUMPKIN · 26/09/2018 09:37

72.2% turnout for the vote would suggest that the demand was there, which ever way you voted.

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2018 09:40

our contributions to science, technology, innovation, music, the arts, education, research, women’s rights, medicine, engineering and democracy.

Ah, right.

Presumably you are meaning historical British contributions to the above, since I rather suspect the majority of current scientists, technologists, innovators, musicians, artists, educators, researchers, activists, doctors, engineers and politicians are more likely to be Remainers?

What do you propose to display aforementioned respect? Perhaps a stiff-backed, hand-on-heart-style proud watery gaze towards the horizon every time a historic British contribution is mentioned?

Does this apply to historic contributors of other nations - i.e. because Y person from X country in 1565 was a great painter, we can't say that X country was subsequently a bit of a dump in 1983. etc?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 09:41

Elements, no I was referring to our contributions to science, technology, innovation, music, the arts, education, research, women’s rights, medicine, engineering and democracy.

I'd be a little less shouty about "democracy" at the moment, personally. Admittedly it is better than North Koreas. But that's not really a very high bar.

Even today, we are being told by the PM that an election would be "bad" for the country. Which suggests, there may never be a "good" time again.

Moussemoose · 26/09/2018 09:41

I turned out to vote but I didn't think there should be a referendum.

Once the decision was made I engaged with it but I think it was the wrong decision.

Figural · 26/09/2018 09:42

The granddaughter of a friend of mine is distraught that she probably won't be able to do the course she wants if we do leave the EU. It's in Germany and German university education is free to EU citizens, with maintenance loans. Until this year it was free to everyone. Her family can't afford the fees for this four-year course - it has a sponsored year in industry - and there isn't a similar option here.

I have my fingers crossed for her; she's putting so much work in on her language skills which don't come easy to her.

Moussemoose · 26/09/2018 09:43

LEELULUMPKIN any thoughts on the U.K. contribution to systematically raping countries of their natural resources to power our industrial revolution?

Our wealth and our ability to engage in art, music etc was built on slavery.

True fact.

Talkstotrees · 26/09/2018 09:52

What do you propose to display aforementioned respect? Perhaps a stiff-backed, hand-on-heart-style proud watery gaze towards the horizon every time a historic British contribution is mentioned?

Does this apply to historic contributors of other nations - i.e. because Y person from X country in 1565 was a great painter, we can't say that X country was subsequently a bit of a dump in 1983. etc?

Fabulous 👏

LEELULUMPKIN · 26/09/2018 09:55

And Great Britain was the first country to abolish it. True fact.

I said in my first message that there was much that we should not be proud of,but as so many keep saying, this is not about the past, it’s the future and there is a whole world out there.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 09:58

Once the decision was made I engaged with it but I think it was the wrong decision.

Not meaning to sound snippy, but how far does that go before it enables something far worse ? What dreadful decisions or policies would you engage with despite not agreeing ?

I think one of the issues around Brexit - although it might have emerged elsewhere - is the fact that a lot of people don't see it as a simple political decision like "what should the tax system be like". It's a much deeper issue. If someone genuinely feels they are losing something precious - not only to them, but their children (checks thread title) then how - and why - should they just sit back and let it happen. Especially when it wasn't even a 2% majority. Even more especially when it turns out that the illegally funded Leave campaign was so inaccurate and in no way prepared people for where we are now.

Brexit isn't bestowing rights on other people - which might make more sense to "engage with despite disagreeing". Brexit is removing rights.

So we return to where we were 2 years ago. Entrenched on both sides.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2018 10:05

Great Britain has much to be proud of and just like every other country, much not, but I really resent anyone who says ours was a shit country before we joined the EU.

That is disgraceful and so disrespectful to all of those Brits who have given so much to the world.

What happened between 1945 and 1972?

Ah yes.
Rationing. That initally got worse after the war ended, and didn't end until 1952.
The 1950s were grim for a huge number of people.
Rebuilding the country with America aid - not our own money, from our own economy.
With the use of immigrant labour from the Carribean and Indian Subcontintent.
The loss of many of our colonies.
We had slums throughout the sixties.
And lots holes in the ground where we'd been boomed. Years and years after the war had ended.

Sure we had the swinging sixities, but you are rather rose tinting it.

Then we had a referendum. Cos we were looking for opportunities and building relations with Europe cos it was rather a smart move at the time. Cos our economy was in a bit of a state and at some point the US money would run out.

Then the seventies were characterised by a general strikes, blackouts, a mass dip in the economy were we struggled to compete with global markets (outside the EU). Then we had the miners strikes.

And it was all rather shit by a lot of measures. We had a different sense of community but thats gone, not because of the EU but because of longer commuter times and the internet.

So Margaret Thatcher - yep lets not forget who it was - said in order for us to thrive as a country, we needed to work with Europe. (Of course there are some parts of Labour who have never forgotten who this was.) And hell I'm no fan of Thatcher.

And she did this speech in Bruges in 1988.
www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107332

The speech has many many elements that die hard conservatives are explicitly going against. The very people who worshipped her as the most sucessful and best prime minister ever, have thrown one of the main legacies of her tenure out the window.

There are also parts that resonate with leavers, I know too - and with a sound basis and fair criticism.

The speech encapulates a lot of things that our current politicians are not articulating. From both camps. The rewriting of history is a problem that dooms our future.

The more we fail to acknowledge the struggles and problems of the 1945 - 1989 period, the more problems we will unnecessarily create for ourselves going forward.

Europe is not perfect. It may not be the thing that Thatcher envised it to be. However the UK is also not the glorious power it was pre-1939. The war ground us down. Our legacy from the war period has run out - Thatcher had the foresight to realise this and that the loss of Empire required us to throw our lot in with Europe to be able to compete internationally in the long term. Especially with the foreseeable rise of China and India. (And else where).

This is what pisses me of more than anything.

The disingeous crap about the future based on re written historical bullshit. And the lack of acknowledgement about the roots of our current political problems.

This comes from every political angle. Its not just Brexiteers who are guilty of this, though the yarns they spin are spectactular in the audicity. Its also the lack of vision and reluatance of parts of the remain camp to address how they have ignore long standing domestic problems. Its also how many parts of the middle classes and / or older generations are completely oblivious even now, to the reality of daily life that so many face. The 'alright jacks' don't give a damn about the wider national interest nor prosperity. They are not restricted to either leave nor remain camps.

Honestly, we are so busy gorging ourselves of political and historical fallacy and are so blinded by out political blindspots that we will have a catatrophic exit from the EU. And frankly we probably deserve it because of our utter, utter arrogance.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 10:14

but I really resent anyone who says ours was a shit country before we joined the EU.

Resent them why ? For telling the truth ? The UK was shit before then. I was born in the 60s, and saw things improve dramatically in the late 70s, through the 80s and 90s.

People who aren't willing to accept their country might have flaws or problems or room for improvement aren't doing anyone any favours.

It might come as a shock to some, but the UK is still shit at some things. I mean really shit. I mean shit in a way that other countries refuse to believe. Housing, transport and social care spring to mind. Shame we couldn't have fixed that instead of wasting years of all our futures on something which won't fix anything.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2018 10:17

We are about to get shit again.

Really shit.

Resent me. But it won't stop it happening.

The only thing that will, is realising we can't live off delussions of the past or present.

Peregrina · 26/09/2018 11:51

And Great Britain was the first country to abolish it. [Slavery] True fact.
Debatable. See:
www.quora.com/What-was-the-first-country-to-abolish-slavery

When we did abolish it, the people freed were 'apprenticed' instead, in conditions as bad as slavery. Oh and we only finished paying off the debt raised to compensate the slave owners in 2015. We didn't compensate any ex-slaves.

iwillrunanultra · 26/09/2018 12:24

Leelulu the vote was a lot about Cameron though and not the EU or possibly people mixing the two up. One of my most vivid memories of two years ago is the emergency Question Time that was hosted on the Sunday after the referendum - the first guy who proffered a reason as to why he voted leave declared that he wanted to 'give Cameron a bloody nose'. I think there was an appetite for that and not necessarily leaving the EU per se.

Helmetbymidnight · 26/09/2018 14:13

The other day, a woman was raging about people who want a 2nd referendum.
I asked her why she voted (and felt so strongly) about Leave.
She said it was because the Govt had raised the pension age and the EU hadn't stopped them.
what can you say to people like this?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 14:16

She said it was because the Govt had raised the pension age and the EU hadn't stopped them. what can you say to people like this?

"You're a bit dim, aren't you ?" ?

bellinisurge · 26/09/2018 14:17

It sounds everything shit post Brexit will be blamed on the EU rather than, say, the people who voted Brexit.
Or at least some idiots will try.

Helmetbymidnight · 26/09/2018 14:24

It was kind of an awkward moment. Grin

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 14:26

It sounds everything shit post Brexit will be blamed on the EU rather than, say, the people who voted Brexit. Or at least some idiots will try.

Well, people in 2007 were still blaming "the Tories" for things that were the result of Blairs tenure. And even now, there are people blaming Labour for things that happened since 2010.

JacquesHammer · 26/09/2018 14:26

It sounds everything shit post Brexit will be blamed on the EU rather than, say, the people who voted Brexit

Everything shit post Brexit will be blamed on Remainers for “not getting behind it”

Satsumaeater · 26/09/2018 14:30

Yes of course the UK has a lot to offer.

But being part of a trading bloc and the resources and opportunities that provides makes it much easier and more efficient for us to leverage what we can offer.

And if we leave the EEA, there is a high chance that the people of Scotland will vote to dissolve the union and so the UK will no longer exist. NI will no longer have a UK to belong to so they either go it alone or join Ireland (or Scotland) and England/Wales become a much smaller country with much less attractive prospects.

LeeleeD88 · 26/09/2018 14:33

Honestly, I am in Ireland and alot of the stuff we see is incredible between people who are uneducated (don't know the basics and even difference bwtween NI vs ROI) and down right ignorant cough cough Teresa May expecting/demanding Ireland and the EU bend over backwards to suit the UK and provide a deal on her terms because it's what she wants.

It is extremely sad. We don't want a hard border with NI. We don't want you guys to leave the EU either. It will be bad for us financially in the short term, but it is getting scarily more likely that this is going to end with the UK crashing out. I don't know what needs to be done to fix it, but Teresa being booted would be a good start, imo.

Also Moggs is suiting himself. All of his interests (and his buddies) have been moved to the republic ages ago. What does that tell you?

Ilovewhippets · 26/09/2018 14:36

Helmet well if you reacted towards this woman as you do to anyone on mn who votes leave, then I'm sure she'll be careful not to cross you again.