to think our children will not forgive us if we don't sort Brexit out

[HurricaneFloss]

DFiL voted Leave. He's not thick and he had his reasons but, to be frank, he's 80 and not going to have to live with the consequences long term. Especially, if the NHS don't manage to stockpile his multiple medications in the event of a No Deal.

AIBU to think we all need to kick up an almighty stink to ensure that our Government makes a deal that will protect our children's futures - even if that means remaining. Jacob Rees Mogg and his ERG buddies predict it could be 50 years for the UK to see the benefits of leaving the EU. That's too late for my DD.

Austerity has damaged enough lives, we can't let Brexit do more harm. It's no good shrugging and saying "Leave won". If this isn't sorted out there will be no winners.

Mousse

Remainers are merely misguided - Jeremy Corbyn is a bona fide threat. Even more so than the eu

Hazardswan

Read upthread I’m not repeating myself

But the UK had opt-outs from the main constraints. We were out of the Euro, out of Schengen, we had the budget rebate. By far the best deal in the EU

We were not the only country to have those opt outs.

The EU might not like the rebate (I don't know if we are the only country to get one) but we are a massive net contributor. Do you know which country contributes the least per head? Luxembourg, that great EU loving nation. Clearly they're small and contribute not very much but the least per head?

Countries like Denmark and Sweden are not in the euro.

And several countries are not in Schengen.

I hate the notion that we are not good Europeans because we are. We contribute to legislation and we adhere to it. There have been few infraction proceedings against the UK, far less than against other member states.

10 - we had an opt-out from ever closer union, so no the UK would not have had further integration. We had such a good deal.

The EU wasn't simply a trade bloc.
It was a mutual standards bloc.
The mutual standards made free trade possible.
The mutual standards meant that there was fairness between partners, they didn't undermine each other -- and safe standards.
Free movement goes with the equivalent standards to ensure the fairness.

That's just a tiny snapshot of how/why the 4 freedoms must go together.

Ethel - thank goodness we have an Aviation expert on this thread! Could you please explain for all of us exactly why you are certain that:

So we do know, for example, that if we leave the Open Skies Agreement without putting something in place to replace it, planes will not be able to take off or land in the UK after Brexit day.

And ICAO Rules are superceded by EU ones? An Expert on International Aviation like yourself will be able to advise us why ICAO is an insignificant global entity compared to the EU's control of its part of airspace.

10 degrees

You just don't want to say it directly to me, you've done the same on other threads.

I find it endearing.

@10degreestostarboard

the whole premise of this thread is that leaving the eu cuts us off somehow from the international system

Correct. On 29th March, the UK leaves the EU and in doing so tears up all 750 Agreements with both the EU and the rest of the world. If there is a successful Withdrawal Agreement (WA), then the UK has until 2021 to negotiate a new deal with the EU and to negotiate deals with the rest of the world - unless Fox has already sold the country to the US corporations. If no WA, the UK has to apply to the WTO to begin trading under WTO terms. Some WTO members might object to this.

If that is true, why is it sensible to be part of an organisation that represents such a risky single point of failure?

The UK has to be a party to some sort of international agreement - the country cannot feed itself (and hasn't been able to since the 1800s), and cannot provide all of the medicine, industrial goods, fuel and chemicals required. The EU may not be perfect, but it is more sensible to be a member of some sort of organisation that ensures these vital supplies rather than to just stomp out and attempt to stand alone, knowing that this is not possible. At least there should be an alternative in place,

Presumably your employer doesn't cancel contracts with a sole supplier before they have an alternative supplier in place.

thank goodness we have an Aviation expert on this thread!

It's obviously not you, is it?

Hate it is not the control of airspace it is the aviation regulatory and insurance rules that are recognised under international agreements to which the UK is party as an EU member state - Open Skies perhaps being the most well known.

Satsumeater - Luxembourg has the highest contribution per head, not the least!

And no other country had quite the same package of opt-outs and rebates as the UK. We also were the largest destination for inward investment - the ability to have an English speaking population and full EU access was a great combination which helped to reverse the post-war economic decline. Post Brexit the relative decline has started again. It is slow and gradual but in 10-20 years, the country will be unrecognisable.

10 (But I am not European, I am British).
Obviously the concept of being European AND British is too difficult for you, perhaps you are better off in a simple world of your own.
French, German and all the others are their own country AND European in the same way that you can be British (From the British Isles) AND English.
With what the ERG have in mind for the UK when you have left, a 'Corbyn Socialist' delusion may be something to dream about longingly and even better for the EU it will be non of their problem.

Havana

.... and as I have stated, countries around the world form mutually advantageous trading blocs without nonsense like the four freedoms and supranational trappings of a quasi state like the ecj

they didn't undermine each other - tell that to the UK Beef Farmers of the late 90s due to the BSE/nvCJD 'epidemic' that never happened. Germany was first in line to impose sanctions that crippled the Industry for decades. Only bloody mindedness has kept UK Beef Farming going.

And Science has never proved or found a link and the epidemic never happened. Bullshit, literally, is the word.

At least the erg don’t break bread with our countries enemies. Corbyn did/does

JWIM - the UK has preceding and overiding International Rights through ICAO - EU rules are effectively just convention and superceded by ICAO.

@HateIsNotGood

ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf

Basically it says: On 29th March the UK leaves the EU and in doing so invalidates all certifications for pilots, crew, aircraft, airlines, airports and airport facilities, and air traffic control.

No certifications = No legal basis for flights = No insurances = no flights

Hate - I presume you’d be happy to feed cow brains to cows again, if it was all bullshit?

Even the Daily Express (in 2016) wasn’t rude and ignorant enough to call the four freedoms “nonsense”.
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

People on both sides of the debate may be interested in signing and sharing the Independent’s final say petition.

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-give-people-a-final-say-on-brexit-deal?recruiter=72792898&utmsource=shareepetition&utmmedium=copylink&utmmcampaign=sharepetition&utmmterm=sharepetition

{... and as I have stated, countries around the world form mutually advantageous trading blocs without nonsense like the four freedoms and supranational trappings of a quasi state like the ecj}
Yes there are about 42 trading blocs. They all have rules that their members have to abide by. In making ANY deal, ALL other members of each bloc have a say in whether new members can join and tariffs when set have to be reciprocal. The UK will be a RULE TAKER. Typical time to make such deals is in the order of 10 years or more. Good luck with that. It's like a bag of smarties, someone else has already taken your favourite colour.

and as I have stated, countries around the world form mutually advantageous trading blocs without nonsense like the four freedoms and supranational trappings of a quasi state like the ecj

True enough - but the UK is not a member of these blocks. It might join one, it might attempt to stand alone. Who knows? What is certain that this will take time - 2, 5, 7 years? The UK leaves the EU on 29th March. What do we do for food, medicines etc. while we're waiting for these new deals to be negotiated? According to you, the EU won't let us starve. I tend to agree, but that is hardly 'taking back control' and hardly puts the UK in a strong negotiating position.

As for the ECJ - at least this is a transparent organisation that has international representation, including British judges. There is no way on Earth that the sort of secretive Trade Tribunals run by corporate lawyers for the benefit of Corporate America are anything that I think the UK should be subject to - and they again make a mockery of the idea of 'taking back control.'

borntobequiet 'They' are always scared of women, minority rights and freedom. For so many reaons.

Woman

I call that Brexit thread bingo

The eu is a gilded cage. Just because leaving it is hard does not make it less worthwhile

Is that what the EU website says? So it must be Gospel and unchallengeable? The EU itself isn't a Civil Aviation Authority that undertakes safety inspections, issues and regulates Pilot's Licences etc - each country does that.

The UK CAA Regulations are the Top Standard in the world - like it or not - and if the EU Bureacrats want to try and challenge that and ICAO then they're bloody stupid, because they will just cause unnecessary mayhem for their own EU Citizens and will end up lifting any embargo within 24hours.