Arguing with friend over her DS

[Courtney555]

I've just had a real row with a good friend of mine who has a DS the same age as mine (10). Whilst we are good friends, we don't physically see each other very often due to her moving quite a distance away, but speak most days on the phone. We've bickered plenty of times, but never rowed like this.

We've since apologised as we said things in the heat of the moment, but I can tell it's definitely not cleared the air.

She and DS came round for dinner. Her child is more than overweight. He's not dangerously obese, but he's really big.

She's always said he's a fussy eater, so us three had beef wellington, new potatoes, and veg. I also did chips for just him, as she'd said its the only form of potatoes he eats. I wouldn't usually do this, but she'd made quite a big deal about it yesterday, so I assured her that I'd have some ready, in a "it's just accommodating a food request" sort of way, like I would for someone with an intolerance or allergy.

Today, he left the meat and veg untouched. Virtually inhaled the chips and asked for more chips because he was hungry. I said sorry, there are no more, but there's beef, potatoes and veg. He replied "No, I don't like it." And then complained to his mum that he was still hungry. She told him not to be rude, but then followed up with, I'll get you something at home.

They went out to play, we were watching them from the window, she turns to me and says, "What do I do? He's so fat."

I asked her what he ate, and she said only burgers, chips, nuggets, beans and spaghetti hoops. Essentially freezer food. Refused all vegetables. Refused all fruit.

I said, unless he has a medical issue with certain food types, she needed to toughen up and give him a healthy diet. Children might genuinely hate a couple of vegetables, but to refuse all of them was omitting so many vital nutrients.

She then got uber defensive and said if was that easy, that's what she would do.

I replied, yes, he might protest for the first couple of nights, but he'd soon get used to the idea that he can't tantrum his way to burgers every night. If he can eat fried chipped potatoes then he can eat them boiled. If he can eat ground up beef as burgers, he can eat the beef in a wellington.

I then suggested, she should retract her offer to make him junk food later, and to tell him his only meal for this evening was the dinner on the table that he'd left, I'd happily reheat it for him, and if he refused, to stick to her guns when they got home.

She basically snorted at me, as if it was patronising and ridiculous to even try, so I said, "OK, but then don't call him fat, don't ask what to do about him being fat, you're the adult in charge of his food, you're making him fat!!!"

"No. I'm. not." Was the aggressive reply.

We then argued along those two sentiments for about five minutes, then she left with her DS.

What do I do. Should I be apologising further? Should she?

We're so close, so we do push others buttons, and speak very frankly with each other, which usually is great, but this is not good.

We're going to have to talk it out and address it. It can't just hang in the air unspoken. I don't know where to start. I thought I offered a fairly standard solution, but her reaction said otherwise. Was it a silly solution? What else do you suggest?

Sorry its so long. Trying not to drip feed.

To be honest OP as well meaning as you may have wanted to be its impossible to understand the struggle she may have been through. Sometimes in life you want to vent but not have someone give you the solution, as if it’s the easiest thing in the world to do. Providing advice on how to parent a child never usually goes well unless done in a very different manner. You were unreasonable in my opinion and insensitive . Not read rest of post though so may have missed lots

• He can't possibly know that he doesn't like the taste or texture of a foodstuff if he's never ever put it in his mouth. Actually impossible. So his refusal on the basis that "I don't like it" is total fabrication.

That's the bit I have difficulty sympathising with. She's pandering to a child's fabrication about why he won't eat anything but burgers and chips. Then rewarding the fabrication with burger and chips.*

Totally, totally agree. My sister was like this, and was always pandered to by my parents, it was ridiculous. 'I don't like it' is not an acceptable response if you've not actually ever put the thing in your mouth. I mean come on, FFS who can defend that? Does ops friend want to raise an adult who will still look at a dish and go 'I don't like it'?

The child is allowed to dislike certain foods after trying them. The child should NOT be enabled to eat nothing but chips.

He probably needs feeding therapy with a speech pathologist now. He's not a small child and used to getting what he wants.

Incidentally I have a friend who put himself through formal feeding therapy with a speech pathologist as an adult (his childhood was quite dysfunctional and he was given whatever he would eat). Before this he would eat chips, bananas and hot dogs without the dog - not overweight but terrible acne. I sat through many restraint meals with him where he ordered a plate of chips for entree and a plate of chips for main

**restaurant

OP, you were totally right. However, I get the feeling the conversation between you both escalated quite quickly.

The straw that broke the camels back here was when you said 'you're making him fat'. It's true and because it is true it probably touched a nerve.

This is why I am very careful to keep my opinions to myself, even when asked. You're on a hiding to nothing in this kind of situation.

I'd have probably told her what I do in my circumstance rather than tell her what to do with her kids. Also, I would say 'have you seen a dietician - maybe they could help?' And then I leave it because I know that any further and things start coming my way that I don't want to deal with.

On a separate note, I now really want beef Wellington.

Difficult one. As a mother, kids and food is a really complex area. I have an extremely fussy eater. He’s on the spectrum and stick thin. He has a healthy diet, though very restrictive. If I said to him, right, eat that or you get nothing else, he would still refuse and I have no doubt whatsoever that he’d end up in hospital with organ failure.
However, I’m assuming your friends child does not have learning or sensory processing issues. But, I’d bet she’s tried and I’d bet she’s struggled. Chances are she gradually got into this situation. She will feel guilty and defensive. She opened up to you, and I do think you dealt with it insensitively. You have to tread very carefully when it comes to potentially criticising a mother’s parenting. Yes, she did ask you. It sounds like she feels just terrible about the whole situation. You gave an obvious, trite response. I know the reality is that that might be what she needs to do, but it’s not that simple to see your child go hungry, to not eat a meal - even if they are overweight. I would be desperately keen to avoid upsetting a good friend and go at it a bit sideways - eg “what have you tried?” Or “what do you think?”. Or “what would happen if you put a plate of veg in front of him?” Try to make it more of a discussion.
As for now, if it were me, I’d ask myself if I still wanted this person as a friend? If yes, then be the big person and phone up, apologise again, say you were insensitive (even if you think not) and didn’t appreciate how difficult it is for her. You want to be a friend, and want her to be able to come to you for advice, same as (presumably) you go to her for advice.
There are times when telling it how it is, is not the best strategy.

For those of the He can't possibly know that he doesn't like school, I think the best way to explain what is going on, is that it is a form of food phobia, not very different to a phobia about spiders or heights or flying or whatever.
With my DD, I think what happened is this. She got a nasty flu when she was one year old - the sort we have all been through, with temperatures and feeling awful for days. When one is ill, food often doesn't taste right, but I think that somehow in her one year old mind, she associated all foods that were not her "safe" foods with being ill, and she kept to that long after she had forgotten ever having that nasty temperature. Because the "safe" food that was in the home was wheatbix and milk (ie her breakfast meal), that is what she fixated on, and everything else was dangerous the way people often think a spider is dangerous. I did try the "you don't get any dessert/other food until at least you try this", and she did try (she is a good girl), but she would then react the way you might react if I told you you had to try "spider" before getting any proper food, and you were trying to be obliging - put it in your mouth and then throw it up, crying because you couldn't do what mummy wanted you to, but you just felt so, so scared. Any food other than a safe food made you feel like that. But some were more scary than others. it was noticable to me that when asked to choose vegetables to try, she went for the raw, crunchy, not wet ones (even though I wash the raw carrot and celery, I have to dry it off before I give it to her, it is not OK wet). Somehow even though they were not in her safe foods originally, when we worked on her choosing what else she could eat, they felt safer than the alternatives, and so with negotiation we were able to extend to those too. But it was important to start her off in a "safe" environment, at home with mummy being supportive, so all she had to deal with was her own fear.

While everything you said was true, that’s not necessarily what she wanted to hear. Her comment and apparent request for advice might simple have been her acknowledging things she is embarrassed about -his weight and behaviour around food.

The diplomatic thing to do is to ask questions and let her come to her own conclusions rather than give direct advice (which can make you seem judgy and superior even when it was requested).

E.g.

Her: “he’s so fat...what do I do?”
You: have you weighed him? Is he overweight? What do you think the issue is? What have you tried so far? What sports/activities do you think he could be interested in? Do you think he is aware of his weight? Could you interest him in healthier eating? Do you think he might eat more varied food if he got involved in cooking & meal planning?

Etc etc etc

Read about Socratic questioning. It’s what psychologists use to help you reach your own conclusions and is a more diplomatic and respectful way of giving advice. For example, by failing to ask “what have you tried so far” you immediately risk patronising and insulting your friends intelligence with things she has already thought of.

Also, on the subject of trying to slip vegetables into a safe food, I don't think that would work with a seriously fussy eater. As mentioned, my DD's safe food was wheatbix, and originally we had various brands of wheatbix that she would eat. But after a while, perhaps because of cost, we tended more often to buy the Tesco brand wheat biscuits, and then after a further while, we discovered (to our frustration), that that had became the only brand that was acceptable - the others "didn't taste right". My fear with trying to slip food into a safe food, is that it might make the food be seen as no longer safe.

My dd is a selective eater - and has been since she was a baby. She’s never been one of those “eat anything” children who then turn fussy.

She’s got massive tonsils and a very sensitive sense of smell and taste (eg if I made sandwiches with unsalted butter instead of salted, she can tell and will get cross!)

Anyway, if I were you I would have asked her what she had tried and talked about trying different books, MN (!) etc etc. Because while you were trying to help with your suggestion, it’s just one suggestion and makes it seem so easy.

For what it’s worth, I’ve had some success with offering one safe food and other new ones. Dd is getting better but it’s a long game.

My DS is a nightmare eater. He’s tiny and gets plenty of fresh fruit and exercise.
I’m very conscious of his diet and weigh him every few weeks so I can monitor his weight and BMI.
My son is stubborn and I can put food in front of him but the anxiety it causes him is just unreal.
So I give him the ‘crap’ but a small portion, and then fill him up on fruit and yoghurt etc
He doesn’t eat any sort of potato, pasta, rice, chips, veg, eggs or anything. It’s hard work.
My DD will eat and try anything
Having a fussy eater is very hard work but you did nothing wrong and she does need to address his weight issue.
She needs to find him a sport he enjoys, if it’s hard changing what he eats then she needs to concentrate on portion size and calorie intake.

@bimkom I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way but I actually think framing it as a weight issue could set him up for other problems. He's quite young for those sort of hang ups.

You might be right there, the one thing I did not have to deal with was weight issues. On the other hand, I do not believe any ten year old in this day and age will be unaware if they have a weight issue. The playground is cruel, and there are mirrors in every bathroom, if nowhere else. A five year old maybe just won't have noticed, a ten year old will know for sure, although they may not be able to join the dots between their diet and the weight.
And the problem with "I would frame it more positively: it's not good to eat the same foods all the time, a varied diet with lots of fruit and veg is healthy, and discussing the benefits of exercise without mentioning weight loss (strength, fitness, etc)." is that it is very vague (a lot of adults grapple with that too). And therefore hard to know how to "control". The advantage to " you need to eat five portions of different fruit and vegetables" is that it is a number you can control, and every time you do it, you get a mental tick, if not a physical gold star. And my sense is that buy in from the kid is absolutely critical, and that means he needs measurable goals, in black and white, because kids can't deal with anything else. And if you are going to say to him - you can only eat chips once a day, or whatever, to be healthy, you are going to need to be able to objectively justify that - which is why a calorie number could be, it seems to me, so useful. If he had a total number of calories, at ten his maths is probably up to working out how many chip portions you get in that (or with a bit of help he would), and he can see his options.

There's some good advice here. I imagine his eating is more troublesome than just fussiness. His habits are probably very entrenched and tied up with all kinds of strong and difficult emotions. I think your friend is correct that it's not as simple as saying this is your dinner like it or lump it and having a few complaints for a day or two. That said obviously it does need addressing for his health and well being.

There seems to be 2 issues here: fussy eating and being overweight. Many posters are talking about children who are not overweight but have a limited diet. This boy is overweight so must be eating too much of what he does eat. Why? My son is 10 and overweight. He has 3 friends who are all skinny and the difference in their attitude to food is very noticeable. His friends are just not that interested in food. They’ll eat a small amount then stop when they’ve had enough, no matter what the food is. You couldn’t make them overweight if you tried. My son on the other hand is obsessed with food, thinks about food all the time, constantly asks for food, has no off button and no control around food. The older he gets the harder it is to control. I find the whole thing hugely stressful and really worry about what will become of him if he doesn’t learn to self regulate at some point. We talk about it often but sometimes I think that’s just making things worse.

About your friend OP - if you want to make up with her I would try saying something empathetic and supportive like “I can see you’re really worried about him but don’t give up. If you manage to keep things in check just now he should grow in to his weight as he gets older. It must be difficult to deal with. Is there anything I can do to help.”

Oh, and the other thing that would seem to be really important to me is that the others around, particularly the adults, are eating a healthy balanced diet - so that he can see that this is what "grown ups" do, and in particular the grown ups that he lives with. The foods that DD was eventually prepared to try, were all foods that the rest of us were eating, fish and chicken and meat, and so she was seeing them often, just not on her plate. If mum tends to snack on a carrot stick, then it is easier to conclude that maybe carrot sticks aren't dangerous food.

For the pp who asked 'what's the harm?' in giving a child a diet that allows them to pile on weight - the answer isn't as glib as the question.

My nephews have always been huge (height-wise) for their ages and their parents both tall and overweight. The boys were fed a very restricted diet of junk and as much as they wanted of it (as often as they wanted). They quickly became massively overweight and while one took up sports and deliberately lost weight, the other is now seriously unhealthy.

He is bullied at school, he can only wear tracksuit bottoms because jeans and trousers won't pull up over his thighs and only has men's size xxl t-shirts. He's been placed in a pre-diabetes group by the NHS, experiences serious depression and my own mum has had to get him a personal trainer to try to help his lose weight and tone up while he's at her house.

My SIL has always said she'll let him eat whatever because 'what's the harm?'. He's 12 years old and will have a shortened, unhealthy and unhappy life, thanks to his own parents. THAT'S the harm.

Totally agree with @Blueraccoon - there seem to be two issues here: 1) that the DS in question will only eat a very limited diet (won't eat what the OP served, for example) - ie is a fussy eater; and
2) that his "safe" foods are the type that lead one to put on weight and he is eating them to excess.
They probably do need handling separately, as no kid can deal with too much change at once. Most of us are assuming that 1) would need to be handled before 2), but I suspect that would have to be a judgment call for the parent.

Ok, she called. We just got off the phone. Bit of crying on both parts. The atmosphere is a million times better.

I apologised for phrasing "it's your fault he's fat" in such an insensitive way, and perhaps "enabling" would have been a better word. She disagreed and said it was her fault, she's know it a long time, it just hurt to hear it out loud. She said I was trying to be a friend and that she shouldn't have bitten my head off for confirming what she already knew, especially when she'd directly asked me.

We spoke about the possibility that he was in the minority bracket of SN issues with food, and both agreed, he's not. Although if nothing works, she will take him to the doctors or a dietitian for an assessment.

I said, my harsh, give him a plate of meat and two veg, and let him go hungry until he eventually caves in, was too extreme, especially for a bit who's in this learned behaviour at meal times.

I asked what she thought would happen if, to start, he was allowed his burger, but after he'd had, say a corn on the cob, first.

She said he would have a tantrum at the table, and if she didn't remove the offending veg, he will snatch it up, barge past her, and slam it in the bin.

What she describes, is actually a very controlling and unpleasant young man.

I told her I was going to research more today and call her back tonight. (This is not her failing to be proactive, she's at work all day, I'm not)

If he's that level of "get that food off my plate" slam it in the bin "I want CHIPS", does she go in hard with a no nonsense approach, or would you suggest more softly softly, so it's not a monstrous clash.

I know what I'd do. I'm really biting my tongue not to say "drop him off for the week, let him try that here" but I know, even though we're more on the same song page, she'd get the arse with me. She is making excuses though, and I'd only be doing that to show her that the excuses are only because she allows it. Which deep down, we both know she knows, but, baby steps and all that.

Taking his attitude on board, and that it seems to be down to a child wrapping his mother round his finger, although not by charm, quite the opposite, how would you tackle.

You need to tell her the truth. Gently and calmly, so that it's clear that you are relishing it.

Tell her that she can't allow him to behave like that (which she probably already knows) because, in addition to health problems, it's going to pose very serious problems for him when it comes to dealing with other people and having relationships. That you understand that this is incredibly tough for her, but parenting sometimes involves doing unpleasant things for the good of your children. And that she needs to set strong boundaries as soon as possible for the sake of her son.

so that it's clear that you are relishing it.

That you are NOT relishing it, that is!!!

Glad you got things sorted OP- you sound like a great friend.

Hope someone on here can help with advice- it’s quite a specialised area given the detail you’ve given on his behaviour around food.

She needs to gradually expand his comfort zone, as PP have suggested, and if he behaves badly in response (slamming stuff in bin) he gets consequences not related to food.