Arguing with friend over her DS

[Courtney555]

I've just had a real row with a good friend of mine who has a DS the same age as mine (10). Whilst we are good friends, we don't physically see each other very often due to her moving quite a distance away, but speak most days on the phone. We've bickered plenty of times, but never rowed like this.

We've since apologised as we said things in the heat of the moment, but I can tell it's definitely not cleared the air.

She and DS came round for dinner. Her child is more than overweight. He's not dangerously obese, but he's really big.

She's always said he's a fussy eater, so us three had beef wellington, new potatoes, and veg. I also did chips for just him, as she'd said its the only form of potatoes he eats. I wouldn't usually do this, but she'd made quite a big deal about it yesterday, so I assured her that I'd have some ready, in a "it's just accommodating a food request" sort of way, like I would for someone with an intolerance or allergy.

Today, he left the meat and veg untouched. Virtually inhaled the chips and asked for more chips because he was hungry. I said sorry, there are no more, but there's beef, potatoes and veg. He replied "No, I don't like it." And then complained to his mum that he was still hungry. She told him not to be rude, but then followed up with, I'll get you something at home.

They went out to play, we were watching them from the window, she turns to me and says, "What do I do? He's so fat."

I asked her what he ate, and she said only burgers, chips, nuggets, beans and spaghetti hoops. Essentially freezer food. Refused all vegetables. Refused all fruit.

I said, unless he has a medical issue with certain food types, she needed to toughen up and give him a healthy diet. Children might genuinely hate a couple of vegetables, but to refuse all of them was omitting so many vital nutrients.

She then got uber defensive and said if was that easy, that's what she would do.

I replied, yes, he might protest for the first couple of nights, but he'd soon get used to the idea that he can't tantrum his way to burgers every night. If he can eat fried chipped potatoes then he can eat them boiled. If he can eat ground up beef as burgers, he can eat the beef in a wellington.

I then suggested, she should retract her offer to make him junk food later, and to tell him his only meal for this evening was the dinner on the table that he'd left, I'd happily reheat it for him, and if he refused, to stick to her guns when they got home.

She basically snorted at me, as if it was patronising and ridiculous to even try, so I said, "OK, but then don't call him fat, don't ask what to do about him being fat, you're the adult in charge of his food, you're making him fat!!!"

"No. I'm. not." Was the aggressive reply.

We then argued along those two sentiments for about five minutes, then she left with her DS.

What do I do. Should I be apologising further? Should she?

We're so close, so we do push others buttons, and speak very frankly with each other, which usually is great, but this is not good.

We're going to have to talk it out and address it. It can't just hang in the air unspoken. I don't know where to start. I thought I offered a fairly standard solution, but her reaction said otherwise. Was it a silly solution? What else do you suggest?

Sorry its so long. Trying not to drip feed.

More facile stuff, Lookatyourwatchnow. did you read happygolucky's post? you can't just 'make' a 10 year old eat what you decide to put in front of them, especially after years of poor diet.

I didn't tell the op to come up with solutions and you're talking bollocks

"He's old enough to spend his pocket money on junk food which is quite likely what would happen."

He's TEN! My 10yo certainly wouldn't be allowed to spend pocket money on junk food and neither does she have the opportunity, really. At 10 there is literally no issue with saying this is what is on offer, no junk food for dinner. A parent can't abdicate responsibility for a 10yos food choices! But I would agree that the window is closing fast. 14 will be a different matter.

Dealing with fussy eaters can be difficult. I didn't end up with this scenario only because we never had things like chips in our house, there was a complete ban on them, so there was no way my DD, the fussy eater, was going to grow up insisting on them as they just weren't available. But she was fussy never theless - and at one point (ie aged one to two) the only thing she would eat was wheatbix and milk (and bananas and apple juice). And I did end up feading her wheatbix with milk three meals a day, with snacks of bananas and apple juice, and that was it. Luckly she had fixated on things that were not too unhealthy, but I did discover that there it is very difficult to give a fussy eater anything that doesn't fit into her limited range, and wait for the range to extend. However, if she had been eating more wheatbix and milk than I thought was healthy, and putting on weight I guess I would have limited the amount she could have to a healthy portion.
As she got older, I did start negotiating with her. At one point I said to her (she was much older than 1-2, maybe early to middle primary school age when she could understand me). The government says that children need to eat five portions of fruit and vegetables a day - and apple juice only counts as one (by then she had dropped the bananas, but was prepared to eat dried dates). You need to choose four fruit and vegetables on top of the apple juice. In the end she chose a raw carrot stick, a raw celery stick, some raisins and some dates. I gave them to her before dinner every day - and the deal was she had to eat them before I gave her dinner, and after she had done that I wouldn't nag her the rest of the day. it mean there was only one potential battle ground, and she did have choices, albeit limited to fruit and vegetables, the amounts were not huge, and I had the "government guidance" to back me up. I put up with her eating different food to the rest of the family, and the food being desperately monotonous for years and years. Eventually she start exploring, and adding to her diet, first came fish, particularly salmon, and then about half a year later chicken followed by meat. She still won't eat soup in any form (too slimy) or cooked vegetables or most fruits - and she still has her raw carrot and raw celery stick before dinner. It is clear to me that at least some of it is a control issue - a sense of terror as to what the food they don't trust will do. "Try a little you might like it" - never worked. Even when she did try to please me, she always, always said she didn't like it. I had to wait until she decided she was prepared to experiment and try something, and it was a food at a time.
Some of these techniques might help here, but at least because the food in the house was pretty much all of it healthy, I didn't have to deal with her fixating on non healthy food as her "safe" foods.

It's that simple. People like to make it sound more complicated so that it looks harder

This is my thought also. Although I'm happy to be shown examples that reasonably prove otherwise.

Mine would eat cheesy pasta for every meal if he could. He can't because I don't allow a diet that would be detrimental to his health.

I think it boils down to, if a child is hungry enough, they will eat. It's basic human survival. It will probably be a living nightmare for the first 48hrs, but learning that no amount of tantrums will bring on junk food, so you eat the spag bol, or starve... He'll eat the spag bol. Again, these are only my personal thoughts.

At the moment, he feels that he can dictate exactly how much and what foods he eats, by exhibiting poor behaviour if he isn't presented with junk. He then sees his tantrum being rewarded with more junk food.

That's not right on any level.

@bimkom

That's an excellent approach. He's the sort of child that would be much more receptive to "look, the government says this".

That's something I would never have thought of, thank you

She'll almost certainly phone back tomorrow when she's calmed down, and this will be really helpful.

Utterly condescending. Talk about with "friends like you who needs enemies" ... I hope she doesn't phone you back. I hope she has more self respect than that, and she gets proper advice and support elsewhere.

There are posters on this thread who have told you they have DCs who won't eat so your theory that a 10-yr-old will eat whatever you want them to if you just use tough love isn't true. You seem to lack empathy and you also lack experience of managing food issues. Please don't call your friend back with a list of patronising suggestions. Your conversation today shows you're not the person to support her through this.

My DSs are fussy nightmares. It was an absolute battle to get them to eat some basic vegetables, but I have done.

What you could suggest (if she ever wants to talk to you about it again) is to alter the food she gives him slightly to incorporate some vegetables.

So the burgers, she needs to make them fresh, and add some grated vegetables to the meat. Just a little to start with, so the flavor isn't too different. Although if he's only ever had the freezer variety she might have to give him plain homemade ones to start with as that will be a big taste change anyway.

Similarly with chicken nuggets, she can mince up cooked chicken, and then make a homemade chicken nugget and add a touch of vegetables to them, gradually increasing the amount of vegetables.

A wholesale change isn't going to work. The changes need to be incremental. And trust me, even incremental changes will end up with a monumental number of tantrums and fussing.

Oh and Courtney, not ALL children will eat if starved. You could just be setting them up for a different of food issues. My DS at 2 refused to eat at one point, and lost almost 2 kgs in weight which is a HELL of a lot of weight for a 2 year old.

OP you crossed the line when you continued to argue with her even when it was clear she didn't want to hear any more. How was that helping? How was that being a friend?

Sorry that you feel all the posters offering ideas based on their personal experience are nothing more than "patronising suggestions."

To the contrary, thank you for all contributions, I'm sure she'll appreciate them, they're much better than my "just tell him that's his dinner, full stop" idea

@overthehedge

What veg did you grate in with the burgers please? What went most successfully unnoticed? The same for the chicken?

Mt DS would starve rather than eat healthy food, so you are so wrong.

I guess with an overweight child, that might be less of a worry, but my DS is skinny. So skinny his swimming teacher said he struggled to learn to swim because he did not have the advantage of others, with a teeny bit of fat, he has nothing!

I think you wre too harsh! Like the people who try to tell me how to get my DD to sleep, they do not live the situation I do, so actually, they can fuck the fuck off!

I guess what I am trying to say (despite the typos, and spelling mistakes) is that it sounds to me like what your friend really wanted was some sophisticated advice on handling something really quite difficult, and she was hoping you might be able to offer something a little more than just don't give him.

Based on my experience I guess I would have said to her - I think you need to have a conversation with your DS (not in front of others, and when you and he have some time), discussing the fact that he is overweight, the fact that that is probably due to his diet, and the risks for him going forward. I would stress in the conversation the government guidance of five portions of fruit and vegetables a day. Especially given that her DS is now ten, I would suggest asking him what he thought the best solutions were presenting it as a joint problem for you both to work on. Limiting portion size? Changing diet? if he was able to change his diet, what does he think he might be able to change his diet to (out of every food in the world)? In particular are there any vegetables or fruit he might be prepare to tolerate? When in the day might he be prepared to eat them best? etc - the point being trying to give him as much control over the change as possible. Facts and figures are likely to be helpful - it might be worth getting a calorie analysis of his regular diet, compared with how much he ought to be eating and then get him to think about how to reduce his calories to what they should be, giving him as much control as one can for the tinkering. Then try and agree something so that you are only reminding him of the agreement when you deny him something or produce something healthy for him to eat.

I wouldn't apologize at all. She asked for advice, you have it to her and she didn't like what you suggested. She needs to stop giving in and do what's best for him. Yes it will be hard the first day or so but it will do her boy the world of good to be eating better.
This reminds me of when I looked after a friends boy for a week, he was always fed chips, nuggets and sausages but they were either from McDonald's or from a chip shop he refused to eat anything else!! Ooh he would eat plain pasta too.
A week with us and he was eating proper home cooked meals, he had a tantrum the first night or two but once we made it clear that he won't be getting anything else, he soon ate his evening meal and actually, by the end of the week, his behaviour had changed in a positive way and he even said how much he enjoyed the food. It didn't last long because his mum went back to buying takeaways every bloody night because she's too busy to cook a decent meal as she works long hours

I think you should contact her not the other way round. Just a short text to apologise. Then give her some time.

My dd is a fussy eater. She liked 3 meals on loop, two of which were composite meals. Once she decided to refuse to eat these 2 composite meals (with hidden vegetables), she refused to eat vegetables until around 5. I put them on the plate before that but she just pushed them off the plate.

Dd is miles better at 10. I don’t care how the vegetable is prepared as long as dd eats it. Even cucumber cut the wrong way will result in her refusing it. And that has changed from slices to sticks and now a whole piece, which she bites off. So I would suggest your friends ds can pick the vegetable and choose the way it is prepared.

I have also read that something often needs to be offered 7 times before it is tried. So I would suggest putting the veg on his plate and accepting it will eventually be eaten. I got by as a kid with lots of ketchup. Your friend could also make him his faves and put a side of beef from the Wellington (or whatever he eats) to try.

I understand how your friend has got herself in this situation. I’m disabled and chronically ill. Dd is overweight but not obese. She was losing weight as my health improved but I’ve been so ill for over a year now and it’s very hard to have the food battles especially as I am also eating the sweets and chocolate. I use the instant carb energy when I’m like this, which I know is bad but I do it to get by but it’s hard to explain all of that to dd.

I absolutely disagree with forcing a child to eat, vomiting, forcing them to sit at the table. It creates food battles and will exacerbate the issue. By the sound of it, this is the opposite end of the spectrum to what she is doing.

She'll almost certainly phone back tomorrow when she's calmed down, and this will be really helpful.

I also think this is extremely unlikely.

OP, your friend was reaching out for support not suggestions. There's a huge difference. Maybe start with trying to understand that.

Mermaid but how long have you allowed your DS to refuse food for before you've given in and given him what he'll eat?

I think people give in too soon.

I also don't believe all children will eat if starved. My DD definitely wouldn't. We had a situation where we couldn't get wheatbix for 10 days, and my DD refused everything except milk (even went of the bananas), lost an extraordinary amount of weight.
And we had situations were we were invited out for dinner, and the hostess made a lovely dinner, and all my DD would eat was a banana I brought her (there being no wheatbix available), and then complained she was hungry, and we had to go home early so I could give her wheatbix at home! Same scenario as here except that it was wheatbix not chips, and not likely to make her fat. But it didn't change the underlying dynamics, which was, I believe, about a fear or foreign foods, and a need to control what went into her mouth.

@Courtney555

I didn't mean making him heat the onr piece of veg but putting one piece of veg on his plate each night. He doesn't have to eat it nut rather he may get used to seeing it, become familiar with it and decide to try it.

Growing up my mum always boiled veg. Now as an adult I've come to realise i hate veg cooked in this manner bit prefer it steamed or stir fried. Just something else for ypur friend to consider.

Probably getting him involved in cooking is the way to go, probably with learning to make and cook home made burger to start. Much healthier than shop bought anyway.

For a beef mince burger, carrot (grated and lightly fried before adding) and courgette with the skin peeled (because its such a dark green it sodding well shows up in everything!). A little bit of sweet potato can be added.

For chicken nuggets it's harder. Stick with some mash potato, but because it's minced meat you can add an egg and some breadcrumbs to bind it.

My hidden vegetable meatball recipe has the mince, grated carrot, courgette, egg, grated cheese and breadcrumbs to dry it a bit and hold it together. I now also add things like green beans, sweetcorn etc as my now don't mind if they see the vegetables.

Sweetcorn can be another vegetable that they can grow to like. The first time my two willingly ate it was when it was grilled on a bbq in foil.

The way I got my 2 to first try a vegetable, was to offer them their favourite meal, and put 3 pieces of the vegetable on their plate (one being absolutely tiny) and tell them they had to eat at least one before they got their meal. Of course they chose the tiny one. But the next time I did it (about a week later, it's just not possible to fight this every night!) I made the piece a bit bigger, and so on. Then they had to have 2, then 3, then I put it on their plate at the same time as the meal but they had to eat it before they got any extras or pudding.

Then onto the next vegetable.

I started with peas, then moved onto steamed carrots, green beans, broccoli, sweetcorn, mange tout, parsnips (white carrots [ wink]).

*Off not of, of not or - ie fear of foreign foods

DS1 age 10 had a friend for tea recently, I messaged his mum and said which would her son prefer , lasagna , cottage pie or spaghetti bolognese. She messaged back saying he doesn't like any of those can he have pizza, nuggets or fish fingers. I said ok I would prob cook pizza. I cooked a large pizza with a salad and made a garlic baguette, I gave them both 2 large slices each and told them to help themselves to salad and garlic bread. He didn't touch the salad but ate 3/4 of the bread and all his pizza and asked for more. I gave him another slice which he ate and he again asked for more, it got to the point where he had had 5 slices and still wanted more. I was concerned so messaged his mum and she replied it's fine let him have it, I gave him the last slice then served the chocolate brownies I had made with ice cream, he had 3 helpings. He is extremely overweight and I felt angry with his mum as she has allowed this to happen. She is obese herself and I cannot understand why she is enabling her son to go the same way, it's very sad

I AGREE WITH SQUIRREL