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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To wonder why so many famous people are publicly supporting...

250 replies

ThanksHunkyJesus · 14/09/2018 21:21

Oritse of JLS fame who has been charged with the rape of a 20 year old fan, along with a friend of his who is accused of assaulting the same woman. Those who have publicly lent their support and well wishes to oritse include aston merrygold (also of jls), Alexandra Burke, Rochelle humes and olly murs amongst plenty of others. Falling over themselves to declare what a lovely guy oritse is.

Am I going mad or did #me too never happen? Why publicly throw your support behind someone who is accused of rape in the current climate? I wouldn't want to speculate whether he's guilty or not - but no consideration at all for the young woman did shock me.

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PlantsArePeopleToo · 14/09/2018 22:44

I honestly hope for the people publicly defending him's sake that he found not guilty otherwise they are going to end up with egg on their faces.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 14/09/2018 22:44

@Sparklingbrook

In the eyes of the law they are both innocent because neither of them have been convicted of anything.

BonnieF · 14/09/2018 22:47

If a close male friend of mine who I had known well for many years and had never seen treat women with anything other than respect was accused of rape, I would stand by him and support him until such time as evidence of his guilt ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ was presented.

Isn’t that what friends are supposed to do?

ElizabethG81 · 14/09/2018 22:55

For those questioning why it would take from 2016 to 2018 to charge him, that's not unusual at all at the moment for sexual offences. The police are overstretched and are waiting a long time for forensics.

Storm4star · 14/09/2018 22:59

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AnoukSpirit · 14/09/2018 23:04

He is adamant he did not do it.

How many people who commit sexual offences don't do this? Seriously. Even those who've been caught on film still try to deny it and claim the victim consented it.

Sexual offenders are spoken about in our culture as monsters. No human alive wants to think of themselves as a monster. None of us. We all want to believe there is something good in us. That others can see something good in us.

That is why so few people will admit to a sexual offence, even in the face of undeniable evidence. They do not want to be a monster in their own eyes and the eyes of everyone around them. It's basic human nature.

There is so much naivety on display here about how sexual violence works.

Abusers and rapists choose their targets carefully. They target people who they think won't be believed. They target people they think won't tell anyone.

They are careful to be charming, likeable, and incredibly helpful as their public face to the world. How many men who murdered their entire family were afterwards described as having been a pillar of their community? It means nobody will suspect them, and that if they are accused nobody would believe they were capable of such a thing. It's the exact same way domestic abusers operate.

I could go on.

People who are capable of rape and other forms of violence and abuse look and act just like the rest of us. That's what makes this so terrifying and compels so many of us to try to find any way possible to believe the victim is a liar. It's preferable to the reality.

We want to make our world safe again, and for our world to be safe we need to be able to take people at face value and be able to believe that we would see a rapist at a hundred paces. That we could always protect ourselves.

The truth is that we don't, but as humans that is an unbearable position to be in. So we deny it.

I know I too can sometimes be over confident in my ability to see through abusers. However, I then found myself reading a local newspaper and discovering the write up of a trial of a man I had thought seemed decent. He was part of the community, all my interactions with him were positive, I'd never felt unsafe around him, he seemed hardworking and honest.

He had been on trial for child sex offences. My immediate reaction was "no, this cannot possibly be true, it must be a mistake, he wouldn't do that." Because realising I hadn't spotted it and could not have predicted it was terrifying and unsettling, and my brain needed to make my world safe and predictable again.

Were it not for the fact that in this case he pled guilty to try and get a reduced sentence, I expect there would still be a part of me trying to convince myself it wasn't true and he hadn't done those terrible things. Even when I saw he'd pled guilty I was still in denial for a little while! "No, not him, maybe he was coerced into pleading guilty!"

There is far more complexity to this subject than people seem aware of, or prepared to accept. There are vanishingly few posts that reflect the reality and complexity involved.

As for the supposedly ruined life of a man under investigation for a year, eighteen months, two years... Where is our concern for the victim who has also had the investigation hanging over and disrupting her life for a year, eighteen months, two years? Where is our compassion and rage at her ruined life? Why are we not angry that it's been dragged out for her?

Anybody who thinks the victim's entire life doesn't disintegrate during a rape investigation is woefully misinformed, at best.

Even if you're too blinkered to accept my use of the word victim, if you're raging at this post and preparing to type "innocent until proven guilty" at me, then why are you not concerned about the innocent complainant who has never been charged or convicted of lying? Why are you casting aspersions on her reputation without a fair trial? Why do you not care about her ruined life when she's never been found guilty of a crime either? Why the double standards?

It is either deep denial as self preservation, or it's misogyny.

lifeofdreams · 14/09/2018 23:11

People can support who they want.

Thankfully, in this country you’re innocent until proven guilty.

ThanksHunkyJesus · 14/09/2018 23:13

"I honestly hope for the people publicly defending him's sake that he found not guilty otherwise they are going to end up with egg on their faces."

The damage is done by then. The instant that the happy smiley people who entertain us on a Saturday night vouch for someone's characte, while no doubt not being in possession of the full facts of the case and with no word at all for victims of rape and sexual assault - That's when the damage is done and rape myths are perpetuated and stupid people who are led by the media say things like "well what did she expect going to his hotel room - you don't invite someone up just for coffee" and "he's such a nice guy, he couldn't have done it". Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, maybe he thought she consented. That's for a jury to decide. Is it really so hard to see how celebs supporting him very publicly, damages all victims of rape and sexual assault? Particularly the young women who idolize the likes of olly murs? They will internalize this sort of crap. If it happens to them, they know they won't be believed.

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lifeofdreams · 14/09/2018 23:13

AnoukSpirit

I’m not casting any aspersions on the victim. I’m saying that until this man is proven guilty in a court of law then his friends have every right to stand by him. Even if he was proven guilty and they still stood by him then that would be their choice as well.

Storm4star · 14/09/2018 23:14

Anybody who thinks the victim's entire life doesn't disintegrate during a rape investigation is woefully misinformed, at best

Absolutely and when you find that after that 18 months they won’t be charged, the scraps of your life that you’re holding onto crumble into dust. The only person I have sympathy for here is the victim.

lifeofdreams · 14/09/2018 23:16

thankshunkyjesus

Then shouldn’t the accused be afforded the same anonymity as the accuser? That way there’s no light being shone on the accused and them being painted as a saint by their high profil pals?

If their found guilty then plaster their names across the paper and lambast them but until that point why don’t we let the judicial system do what it’s meant to do?

lifeofdreams · 14/09/2018 23:17

*They’re not their!

ThanksHunkyJesus · 14/09/2018 23:18

These people aren't just their friends and family. They're also influential celebrities. Don't they have a responsibility to their fans to think about what messages they're really sending out?

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Jamiefraserskilt · 14/09/2018 23:19

What about being innocent until proven guilty? Why has he been named?

lifeofdreams · 14/09/2018 23:20

If it was kept anonymous then the “influential celebrities” wouldn’t be commenting

PlantsArePeopleToo · 14/09/2018 23:24

Why has he been named?

Uh, probably for the same reason anyone accused of any other crime can be named, regardless of how hideous that crime is.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 14/09/2018 23:26

Then shouldn’t the accused be afforded the same anonymity as the accuser?

The accused and the claimant both play different roles in the justice system. Wanting them to be treated the same is not logical.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 14/09/2018 23:27

Funny how people only get their knickers in a twist about men accused of sex crimes being named. Nobody gives a shit when murder suspects are named or those accused of (non sexual) child abuse...

MozzieMagnet · 14/09/2018 23:29

"Do you want to come back to my room" usually means sex, not for coffee and Brexit discussions.

and enthusiastic consent means just that and consent can be withdrawn at any time including in the act itself.
The moment someone says stop, no or leave is the moment any consent is retracted - that shouldn't be up for debate.

Nearly 30 years after Mike Tyson was found guilty of raping Desiree Washington in a hotel room and we're still having a discussion on whether a hotel room equals code for we're definitely on tonight...it becomes rape as soon as consent is withdrawn.

Alibaba87 · 14/09/2018 23:30

Anouk I don’t agree re trials. They are there to prove innocence or guilt based on charges, often several . A sentencing hearing then decides if it should be punishable and to what degree. As you say some people do walk free or with suspended sentences etc. even if proven guilty of a crime.

ThanksHunkyJesus · 14/09/2018 23:33

I'm not particularly interested in whether you think those accused of rape should be anonymous. That's a different discussion.

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PlantsArePeopleToo · 14/09/2018 23:34

Agreed @ThanksHunkyJesus. I have no idea why people feel the need to bring it up constantly when it has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Sorry I got dragged in.

ThanksHunkyJesus · 14/09/2018 23:39

That's ok plants fwiw I agree those accused of crimes shouldn't be anonymous unless they're children.

On the nice guy thing, look how many people thought Rolf Harris must be a good guy because therefore innocent because of his persona.

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JaniceBattersby · 14/09/2018 23:40

People are named after charge because thank Christ in this country we largely have a transparent, open justice system.

This has been debated many times on Mumsnet so I’m not going to rehash the old arguments but those calling for anonymity for the accused know not what they do. We cannot have secret courts. If those accused of rape are anonymous then rape cases will never be reported. I know this because I’m a court reporter and I cannot justify sitting in court for a trial for two weeks where I might not ever be able to report a word. If you don’t report rape cases then there’s less deterrent for someone who fancies raping someone to stop them from doing it. Publicity has been proven time and time again to be an effective deterrent. Those affected will be the 99per cent of women raped by normal ‘good guys’, not those raped by celebrities.

And to those who think that mud sticks, that those accused of rape have their lives and careers destroyed, I’d invite you to take a look at Michael le Vell, William Roache and Ched Evans, still being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds in their chosen fields. How do you think the women who accused them of rape are doing now? Take a guess.

MozzieMagnet · 14/09/2018 23:43

She was 20. They were 29/30.
She and her friend had both been invited to the hotel for post-gig drinks after a 3am set. They were both JLS fans.
She left her handbag in the room with her cab fare in it, went back to get it and that is when the alleged rape/assault by both men took place.

Half age plus 7 rule: innocent until proven guilty but sure as shit old enough to know better.