To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

[Whatsnextforus4]

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

Junior Drs are qualified Drs - think you mean medical students.
To me you should not be able to refuse if being treated on nhs. They need to learn and whilst much can be done so in lecturrs and lans they need real patients.

So consent is only for those who can afford it Senior?

To me you should not be able to refuse if being treated on nhs. They need to learn and whilst much can be done so in lecturrs and lans they need real patients.

So the only people that have a right to privacy are the rich people that can afford to go private?

Are people seriously advocating forcing people to be examined and tested? Bodily autonomy is one of the most vital rights that any human being has or should have. Any medic who is willing to force an unwilling patient in such situations would be committing assault and is clearly in the wrong job.

I have read a lot of stupid shit on this site, but this tops the lot. Are you seriously fucking comparing someone who is literally dying and needs all hands on deck to save their life to a patient refusing an exam by multiple students when they only require one by their actual doctor and would find it distressing/uncomfortable/traumatic? Please don't tell me that you typed that bs with a straight face.

Oh, that doesn't surprise me. Youmeandconch and Senior here believe that there should be no such thing as consent when you're a patient. Yep, they do! So if you're a patient on the NHS (I mean, fuck the poor who can't afford private care, they don't count anyhow), then you should be forced to undergo medical procedures without your consent because well, you're a piece of meat and not a human being Imagine! Intimate exams, smears, invasive procedures on yourself, your loved one, your child, all because you shouldn't have personal choice. Thankfully, the law sees that type of ridiculous mentality for what it is: a crime.

Just to give you an example of what you are suggesting Senior, and how it might work out in reality. I recently went to the GP about breast lumps. I requested a female GP and was given an appointment with one who had to 'manhandle' my breasts quite a bit. I found it really uncomfortable but I was able to cope with it done privately, with a female doctor. Are you actually saying that she should have been allowed to invite some student doctors in too, to have a feel, and I get no say over this because I'm using the NHS? Is that really what you are advocating?

For me it now boils to supervision. I used to be very pro.

But a student mw lack of action led to dc3 being brain damaged. Spending your whole life with cerebral palsy because your mum was trying to help the next generation of midwives can’t be much fun. Shall I ask dd?

Left
Read what I said! I didn't say they should have to give their reason I just said that if you opt out for no reason it's a little selfish. If it would be traumatic or too uncomfortable for you to have a student doctor that's fine you don't have to justify it. (this was very clear in my post) I just said that if you an cope with having a student doctor you should.

The reason we have the choice now (and I'm glad we do) is because enough people say yes that the student doctors get enough chance to practise. If they didn't have that opportunity that choice would have to be removed which would be a massive shame as far as I was concerned.

I have worked in the NHS, and people refuse for many reasons. sometimes anxiety and sensitivity. sometimes because they have had a bad experience with a student in the past. Sometimes because they have a relative or friend who is a student at the hospital and they don't want people they see in a social situation seeing them when they are vulnerable - this happened to a friend who unthinkingly said 'yes' to the request - only to be confronted by a group of her boyfriend's mates all inspecting her lady parts.

I've refused to allow a student to take blood from me (allowed all the other stuff) because a month before a student took blood and left me with a massive bruise and swelling down my arm because he hit an artery. It was too soon for me to want to risk it again.

Obviously I have been a student to, and really appreciated that people volunteered to be treated by me. But it should definitely remain voluntary. Can you imagine if people decided not to go to hospital for examinations because they were afraid they would have to submit to examination/treatment from a student and they didn't want to do that, for whatever reason?

mamary that's awful. Expecting someone to be without a fully qualified professional is very different. I would always insist on being seen by a qualified midwife (but would be happy for the student to be there too under supervision).

I wonder how many people would put off seeking medical help if the ability to consent was removed in the way that some posters are suggesting. I certainly would.

Or for their child, Twisted. Imagine no consent, for your child.

It's grim. I think some people just like to argue for the sake of it on these kinds of threads. I'm trying to imagine them actually supporting a system that allows patients to be touched by whoever feels like it against their wishes in reality. I sincerely hope not.

I've been the second person somebody has done a smear test on, (stupid me jokingly asked when they said "she was training but don't worry I wasn't her first" 😂 apparently the cervix looks like a dog's nose ) I've had people observing me or training on me for various things. Everything was mostly very nothing different to report, apart from the doctor who I gave permission to video record my consultation with because he was being assessed - I was in a bad way mentally and he was SO wooden and nervous/distracted in front of the camera it was not what I needed at all, I wouldn't do that again.

I was my mum's surgeon's first ever c-section, she says it was probably the safest procedure possible as he was very careful and closely supervised so I guess I've been raised that it's no big deal.

I can totally understand people saying no, our bodies are very personal.

Not sure I'd be willing to accommodate 12 students at my birth though fair play!

Bit odd that you are kind of braggin about how cool you are with medical students being involved when you aren't even the patient!!

It depends. I have a chronic health problem which entails a lot of hospital visits. Where the consultation is run of the mill I am fine with students attending. There have been times though when I want/need the consultant's undivided attention and have therefore declined to have students present.

If they didn't have that opportunity that choice would have to be removed which would be a massive shame as far as I was concerned.

No. That choice wouldn't be removed.

Nothing like trying to shame people into things.

Nobody has the right to demand that of their patient. Patients have every right to refuse, and they don't have to justify their reasons. Interestingly, it doesn't matter whether you think their reasons are selfish or not.

twisted if your surgery had no female Drs and the male Drs had all been refused the learning opportunity to examine a woman’s breast when they were training and therefore were unable to offer you any help what would you have done? Medical students need learn their trade on real patients so that they can offer appropriate advice and treatment. Those who dont allow medical students these learning opportunities are only able to benefit from trratment because other patients have not refused - that’s why I always agree however invasive or embarrasing my illness might be - embarrasing to me because it wont be to them

Senior should student doctors be allowed to check my breasts against my wishes, yes or no please? Since you are the one who suggested people shouldn't get a choice if using the NHS.

I am a community HCP and frequently have students on placement with me.

If possible I will contact the patient by phone prior to the visit to gain their consent to having a student in attendance. If I am unable to do this I will leave the student in the car and ask face to face if they are happy to have a student present. I want to make it as easy as possible for a patient to say no if they so desire. I never ask for the reason if they decline.
The student will then have to gain consent before doing any examination, and again before doing a treatment. I make sure my patients know that at anytime they can ask for the student to stop. They maintain full autonomy throughout the entire process of being seen by students and by myself.

Informed, respectful decision making is absolutely at the heart of my clinical practice. Due to the nature of my patients' conditions I will often be seeing them for years and maintaining a trusting and open relationship is imperative to providing them with good quality care.

No one is obliged, morally or otherwise to consent to being seen by a student. You do not have to provide an excuse for not wanting to have a student in attendance and you absolutely should not feel bad about saying no. The paternalistic power dynamic between clinicians and patients is thankfully shifting to a more balanced position (although there is still a long way to go), and people feeling comfortable with saying “no” in health and social care settings is absolutely fundamental to that change happening. A good HCP should respect this without prejudice.

*@FlipnTwist

Bit odd that you are kind of braggin about how cool you are with medical students being involved when you aren't even the patient!!

Who was that in reply to? Me? If so, I'm very confused.

The main people affected by removing the ability to say no to being examined by multiple people in any and all circs would be women and girls.

Some would not access medical care if this were the case.

Some people are happy for others to not get medical care / get ill / die to prove a point though so that's fine.

So Senior you feel that anyone who seeks treatment on the NHS should be forced to endure whatever examinations the HCP deems appropriate in order to receive care? How far do you take that? 'Oh, whilst I've got you here for your high blood pressure med checkup, hop up on the table I've got some students who need to learn how to do rectal exams,' and if you say no you can't access treatment? Because forcing people to undergo medical procedures to which they do not consent is a crime, you know.

When you are in a teaching hospital it's not just the med students/junior doctors involved in the care that come round.

My DS is always an "interesting case" because of his disability and this brings medical students out of the woodwork. When you have been awake all night in a chair next to their bed, seen your child prodded and poked as part of their treatment and just got them to sleep so you can dash to the loo or for some food the last thing you want is the 10th medical student that day chasing you down the corridor to ask if they can talk to you/child. And no they can never come back later because they have to present a case at their lecture in half an hour.

Thats why.

Oh we help. Ds was once case studied at a conference. The million doctors looked at him with their eyes only (no exam) and the expert had spoken to us and then he spoke to the others, so we just spoke to one person. Ds has even been a "patient" when doctors have been taking exams. People have been to our house as oart of their studies. So we do our bit.

The occasional no is allowable

I'm very much in favour of letting students be present, and I always do. Always.

On the other hand i agree with the poster who said not for vaginal exams. I'll never forget the group of a dozen 20 years olds who witnessed mine when I was 18. I think that wouldn't happen these days, though.