To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

[Whatsnextforus4]

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

My son had bronchiolitis at 6 weeks old. Gps first referral to hospital had us sent home. 2 days later rang ambulance as he was really struggling to breathe. Paramedic said he was fine but he could take us in 'if I wanted'!! Bloody good job I did as he had a collapsed lung..
To cut a long story short he was kept in for a week, on oxygen. In the care of a nurse who disconnected his oxygen to do some check or another and then went off without reconnecting it! I dread to think what would have happened if I hadn't noticed that something about his set up was different. She had also requested that he was taken out of the room we had and put on the children's ward. He was 6 weeks old, had had no immunisations of which I had to point out to her.. Nope.. Experience for children/babies please.. Let the students deal with less vulnerable until deemed fully proficient..

I think we need to chill out a bit. Have a cuppa and some chocolate. Nobody with any clout is suggesting we remove consent from healthcare (thank goodness) just one or two nobodies on mumsnet. Thankfully, their opinions don't have much clout within the NHS 😉 though they do still have the right to refuse a student, even if they don't think they should have it.

The NHS works - broadly speaking - obviously there are mostly enough people willing to be poked and prodded.

My favourite story about all this is one prostate examination facilitator in the whole of the uk. He's the only man they have been able to find willing to allow a load of medical students to stick their fingers in his bum, so he travels around a lot with a trainer - I think (hope) he's paid. I understand there have been several robotic bums that have been invented to help resolve this shortage!

I had my first kid in a teaching hospital. It was fine. Except that due to one of the junior doctors (? I'm not sure - fairly qualified as he was allowed to put in the induction pessary thing) putting it in wrong, and then taking it out too early, I was mucked about a bit (in the end it all went to EMCS, so no harm done, just annoyance - which you don't really need when you're that much pregnant, and hot, and worried, and uncomfortable).

Similarly, when that DS went in to hospital (for bronchiolitis funnily enough) - two junior doctors put in his drip - and screwed that up - blood everywhere, an ill child, who was normally calm, getting scared and worried because the junior doctors then weren't as calm as they should have been etc.

So on the whole, I'm fine with junior doctors (other times there's been no problem at all - junior midwives, nurses, doctors, even a dentist), everyone has to learn, but I'm afraid if you're putting the drip thing into a frightened 3 year old's hand, or trying to induce a first time mother, perhaps it's not the time for you to practise and you should let someone with experience do it, and get your experience on more experienced patients yourself.

Sorry for your experience Mamaryllis

Agree with you on the issue of supervision - that student should not ultimately have had that level of responsibility, whoever was supervising them should have been acting as a 'safety net' to ensure that things like that could not happen.

However, the reality is, that is not always the case. As a student, lack of staff has meant I have been in many situations where I should not have had the responsibility I have had. I have had mentors who have never allowed me to have any responsibility, ones who have been the complete opposite extreme and tried to get me to do things far beyond my competence eg, giving insulin injections unsupervised as a first year student (then sulked when I refused) and occasionally, a good one who has the balance right and tailors the level of responsibility/ task in accordance with my competence in that area, and supervises sufficiently without being overbearing, and allowing me to learn.

As a student, I don't usually mind at all if patients don't want me looking/ treating them. It's their choice and I'm sure they have their reasons. I find the vast majority don't object so it's not a problem. I can also understand why people wouldn't want too many students observing at once, they are in hospital, not a zoo to be stared at! And it's daft to compare a routine procedure or observation with a life saving one needing lots of hands- the two just aren't comparable.

Also a massive no to having no choice not to consent on the NHS - terrible idea, where would that sort of thinking end? Patients, no matter where they are, should ALWAYS have the choice whether to consent or not (with obviously a few exceptions in certain circumstances).

As a patient, there have been times when I have not allowed a student to carry out certain procedures. This has been due to various things for example the complexity of a procedure, how competent and confident the student appeared or what year of their training they are in. I don't think I have ever objected to a student observing, although would have no hesitation in saying no if I didn't feel comfortable with it for whatever reason. And I would never want a whole group watching, I've found that bad enough when it's been necessary (in resus and when having some of the DC's). It can be quite intimidating, and I think that should be respected.

I think if people want to use a service they should support that service
If everyone said no then there would be no nhs and then what would people suggest?
I do think refusing when it’s people you may know or work with etc is fine
Just as refusing a particular doctor is fine

I did say no once because to a student as it was a really personal issue that was taking me all my courage to speak to the GP about.

Lots of other times I have had no issues.

I said no because i had my arse wedged into a bedpan and was numb from the chest down so was unable to move.
My hair was like an exploded birds nest and i wasn't coherent.
I did not want to be studied.

being lucky, I have only been in hospital to have my children and rarely need the GP so haven't been asked very often. However when I had my youngest, (planned C section due to 2 very traumatic previous deliveries (EMCS) ) there was a student anaesthetist putting my epidural in. Except she couldn't get it in properly.

I was HUGE - 48" round (yes, I did measure it!) and they wouldn't let me lie down as I had done for the previous 2 epidurals, All they kept saying was bend over more to open up your spine! I couldn't bend over any more as I had a sodding massive bump in the way.

After about twenty minutes (felt like 2 hours) of trying (I could feel the needle moving around in my spine -it was horrible and very very painful) she prepared to have yet another go. Then all the lights went out. I have NEVER been so sure that someone was looking out for me until that moment. When the power came back on, there was a short consultation and they asked if, as I wasn't an emergency, would I mind going back the next day to have the baby as they couldn't be sure the power would stay on.

I shot out of that room (well, waddled as quickly as I could ) as if a hundred wolves were after me.

next day the consultant anestheiatist was so horrified by the bruising on my back that he did the epidural himself and I didn't feel a thing.

It wouldn't stop me letting a student practise on me again but boy did it hurt at the time

I have no issue with student doctors being in there at all. Though I do draw the line at being filmed (which they have asked several times.)

I don't always like it though, when I make an appointment, and it's Doctor Hannigan and a Student Doctor, (SD) and the SD sees me, and goes through everything with a fine toothcomb, and asks every medication I am on (even though they're listed on the computer!) and keeps me 20 minutes, and then the 'usual' doctor comes in and the SD repeats everything, and makes sure they have done everything right.

I know they have to learn, and I have no problem with it usually, but every now and again, I can't be arsed to spend 35 minutes in there just to get one item on prescription!

I have never said no though. If other people want to say no, that's up to them, but as has been said, if everyone says no, the SDs would struggle to learn properly, as they need practical experience.

Actually, there is a time when I would say no... As a few posters have said, I would say no if the SD was someone I know. I think EVERYone would refuse then, surely?!

I never understand these 'What if everyone did that?' arguments. Not everyone is going to do that, or anything. I can guarantee that.

Usually, I would have no problem with a student doctor/nurse sitting in on the consultation but I went to my own GP feeling very low. I knew I’d have to talk about my situation and would definitely be upset. It was bad enough showing my emotions to my GP and felt that I couldn’t cope with the student sitting there too so said no.
I think it all depends on what you’re going with, although I agree it’s only through observing they can learn.

When I was giving birth a junior doctor wanted to observe. I said yes. I do remember him cheering me on at one point..makes me chuckle bless him

I totally agree. I have a cousin training as a doctor, and when telling her that I had 2 students docs in with me during delivery, she informed me that she was never allowed in to one and that these 2 students would have been extremely grateful.

I was shocked, and I'm sure it must be scary for them when they are qualified and face these situations for the 1st time.

Students are professional, bound by confidentiality clauses, and just want to learn!

Some posters woudl have no problem with this then:

pelvic exams by students on unconscious women - no consent - this is canada but sure it has happened (and continues to happen?) all over the place

some women reported waking up from non gynae related exams with pain in their vagina area,
and no idea why.
reason was becasue before their eye op (or whatever) a load of students would be trooped in to have a good rummage up their vagina.

Consent is a basic fundamental.

IMO.

@Nothingontellyagain

I am not calling YOU a fibber, but I don't believe a single WORD of that report.

After an incredibly traumatic birth, exacerbated by the room suddenly filling up with people that I didn't know, I asked for my next smear test to just be me and the nurse, and both the nurse and student were more than happy to accommodate this.

I know they're there to learn and believe me i felt pretty guilty asking her to leave, but I can't put hypothetical future patients over my current mental health.

Well I said no to the student midwife giving me a stretch and sweep and then the qualified member doing it to check the student was right.
Sod that.
It bloody hurt.

Students are professional, bound by confidentiality clauses I lived with medics and drank heavily with them - they were not all professional - all the details were shared at the pub....they were amongst the most immature people I have ever encountered.

I once agreed to a psychiatry student sitting in on my consultation. Her head was nodding and eyes drooping. She fell asleep.

I was honestly mortified. It may have been so boring that she fell asleep, but it was my life I was discussing.

The experience put me off feeling helpful towards students and now I don't say yes if I feel uncomfortable.

I had the same experience, Isen. I lived with two medics and then spent a lot of time round others in the course of my work. Many were mind-blowingly immature, quite a few were rather stupid as well.

Why do you have trouble believing it Butterflysugarbaby? A quick Google will reveal numerous articles and reports that reveal that it had happened and continues to happen in a variety of countries e,g France, Canada, Australia, United States etc. France brought legislation in in 2016 to prevent it.

WTF

You don't believe it?
Why on earth not?
I thought it was fairly well known...

Try Google?

You think I would, what, write some kind of report quickly and put it on a fake canada news site in order to score a point on MN or something?

I notice you said you didn't believe it

But you didn't actually say whether you thought it was a bad thing or not.

I also always let students have a try at what ever it is. I let a student do my 20 week scan, yes took twice as long but everyone has to start somewhere. I was also asked if a student could participate in delivering dd, I said yes as long as someone catches her I don't care who it is.