To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

[Whatsnextforus4]

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

but with those two caveats, i think it shouldn't be a matter of personal choice.

That means you believe people should be forced (because allowing students to observe and/or practice) to undergo medical procedures without their consent. I'm utterly aghast that anyone would believe this. Just fucking mind blowing.

I remember having really bad prenatal depression and psyching myself up to talk to my midwife about it. I arrived and was greeted by an inanely grinning student midwife who took over the appointment. As a result, I didn’t get to talk to my usual midwife at all.

I wouldn't have any medical students in a consultation after several of the student nurses / physiod sniggered when I was discussing the problems associated with only being able to open my mouth a small amount.
I have also noticed that it is no longer the norm to ask if it is okay to have students sitting in. Rather x will be sitting in today so you have to make a point of saying no.

@youmeandconchitawurst

Don't be ridiculous. 9 times out of 10 I'd say yes. But some things, no I wouldn't, because I was sexually abused and suffer from anxiety, so certain things (lets say, internal ultrasound) I would absolutely not want extra people there, possibly making the procedure take longer when I need it over and done with ASAP.

Funnily enough if extra people were there while I was unconscious I wouldn't care at the time because I wouldn't be aware of what was happening. Doesn't mean I wouldn't possibly feel anxious about it afterwards though.

it shouldn't be a matter of personal choice

The concept of consent not of interest to you then?

Because one nearly killed me, despite supervision. Hope that’s OK.

It's a personal decision, and nobody should feel shamed or badly for saying no. I've been both the patient and the health care professional trainee in these situations. I have never been offended by someone saying no. Some people are simply not comfortable with it. There's nothing wrong with that.

I had to talk about a gynae problem involving pain and sex and my GP insisted on 2 other students being there - it was awkward, uncomfortable and embarrassing as I still see them whenever I go to appointments. I wish I said no to them being there

I would say no if it was ds as medical issues are difficult enough anyway due to his autism. The less people around the better.

Firstly a few people have posted saying junior doctor - they are not a student, they are a qualified doctor just not a GP or consultant. But yes they still have to learn!

Everyone should be informed of students being there and should be asked. Everyone has the right to refuse.

Personally I always say yes, even during some recent traumatic appointments. They need to learn how to deal with those situations. I am a 1 in 10,000 case though so they need to learn all they can from me!

I don't mind students mostly; in appointments or taking blood, I've let a couple inject me too. I won't have a student do a smear test again since a terrible one a few years back, they're bad enough most of the time without prolonging the process; when they were having a longer look I didn't mind the one student there as it was going to take ages anyway.
For labour - or as it turned out, induction - I said no. I just didn't feel comfortable at such a critical point in our lives with having students everywhere. I ended up anyway with students checking on the baby during induction, but I drew the line at messing about with an already shy and reluctant cervix. There were just so many people it was overwhelming anyway. I was fine with the registrar in surgery (even though I hated her attempt at an internal exam). It was annoying that everyone turning up the day after DS was born had a student with them, but individually they were annoyingly distracting by turning up one by one (and trying to "help" when I was trying to feed the baby who just needed quiet to feed) so the student extras were no more of an issue really and I let them stay.
So basically I'm fine with it unless it's my vagina.

I have always agreed to students coming in whilst I have been in hospital. When I was having dd1 there was about 6 of them in and out of the room and when I had dd I had a student midwife who actually delivered my baby whilst another midwife was present (it was a simple birth), she was lovely and I let her dress dd afterwards because she was so excited about delivering her.

no-body complaints about how many doctors attend them when they're in resus, so maybe we're all just a bit precious when we're not quite ill enough?

Yes - who would imagine that someone who's unconscious or in absolute agony would have a different set of priorities? If only we were all so compliant as the guy bleeding out on a gurney!

Responses like that, and the OP's update, are part of the problem:

medical practitioners believe they have a right to patients' bodies; it is every patient's moral duty to provide teaching experience (with the occasional grudging caveat offered for ASD/rape trauma/mental health)
->
do not respond to dozens of stories about negative experiences patients have had with students or observations
->
patients continue to have negative experiences
->
patients decline student observations and involvement
->
medical practioners say this is selfish, and that they have a right to... etc

I wonder how this cycle can be broken? Maybe just keep shouting about moral rights and stupidity/selfishness of patients?

I struggle attending medical appointments myself due to mental health issues so it's 50/50 as to whether I can cope with students.

I did have one whilst I was in labour with dc1 and she was lovely. In my 2nd pregnancy, there was a student midwife at one midwife appointment and a student doctor at one as well. However I couldn't cope with a student at my mental health appointments I don't think.

I refused a student doctor after being beaten up. I was feeling too delicate.

I'd say yes to them observing etc. but had one do a blood test on me once which resulted in blood all over the table, me almost fainting, and my arm being black from armpit to wrist which took weeks to go away.

Agree with the above. I posted on a birth stories thread about what happened when a trainee administered my epidural in the wrong place (resulting in a spinal headache) and took so long to sew me up (under a qualified doctor's guidance) that I hemorrhaged and ended up staying in hospital for a week to recover. That person clearly wasn't ready to do those procedures!

I think the obvious answer is that those of us who can should have the students in (even if we'd rather not or it's a bit embarrassing) BUT some people will find it too much to cope with and shouldn't be put off receiving medical by having extra people prodding and poking them.

YABVVU. I'd have thought you could have easily came up with at least half a dozen reasons why people might not feel comfortable with allowing students. I suspect that you can and that you're just being goady.

I have allowed a student to sit in on a routine doctor appointment and to listen to me talking about my mental health issues, but I am not allowing 1 or more students to touch me. I am autistic, have severe anxiety, PTSD and multiple phobias including hospitals. Yes they have to learn but they can do that on willing and consenting patients who are comfortable with it.

I haven't rtft but a friend of mine had 4 trainee doctors standing around talking about their weekend as her baby was being pulled out with forceps. Not appropriate.

@keefthebeef

Not sure - it would have been somewhere in the North West I think - but it was a LOT longer than 18 years ago as we are both now in our 60s. I remember though thinking even then that they should have asked permission, but I thought maybe they thought they could get away with it as she was a relatively young woman. TBH it seemed wrong to me even at the time.

I am astounded that this happened to you as a child only 18 years ago. Had I been your mother I would have raised the roof.

I also think while there will be horror stories (as there will be with qualified doctors too), the unqualified doctors do need to practise on someone for the first time if you constantly refuse for no particular reason it's a little selfish. (I totally understand that there are many good reasons which make one person less capable than another for doing this though).

There's doesn't need to be a reason! No one should have to justify why they don't want anyone but the HCPs in the room with them. This is some seriously GF shit.

I usually have no problem with students and have probably met 100s in my time.

I did however say no students when DD2 was born. I saw a 3 different student midwives during DD1's delivery as I was an "interesting", complicated pre-eclampsia case. DD1 was even delivered by a student midwife. However I felt that because the ward was over-stretched that the student midwives were poorly supervised which made it very traumatic and dangerous.

• one student midwife was sent alone to adjust the epidural and didn't know what she was doing. Rather than getting help she ended up pressing buttons randomly saying (nervously) "it must be one of these". This was very scary!
• the delivery was very scary as DD1's heartbeat dropped to 50 and kept disappearing. The student who delivered DD1 made a huge mistake with her APGAR giving 9's and 10's for breathing - but she wasn't really breathing. I kept telling her but was ignored until the supervising midwife stepped in and the paediatric crash team were called. DD was taken to NICU and diagnosed with lungs full of amniotic fluid.
• I lost 3 pints of blood directly after the birth. After the NICU drama I was left alone - completely alone as DH had gone to NICU. No-one came to check on me. I felt ill and rang the bell but a nursing assistant refused to get help as they were "too busy" and I was left alone - eventually student 3 was sent after an hour minutes (with no supervisor) - I think to shut me up. She took one look and realised what had happened - I had lost 3-4 additional pints of blood. Then the room was full of people and I was on my way to surgery and HDU.
• I developed PTSD

So I do not feel bad at all for saying no students at DD2's birth

I’ll let anyone have a go when I’m just there for tests (which is often), but not when I’m ill and in pain.

I’m an extremely private person, and I can barely tolerate one doctor seeing me writhe and cry out in agony. If I had to deal with an audience, honestly I’d probably just stay home and self-medicate, which would be bad.

" I can just about get my head around the "too many people" if someone has extreme anxiety, but otherwise no-body complaints about how many doctors attend them when they're in resus, so maybe we're all just a bit precious when we're not quite ill enough"

I have read a lot of stupid shit on this site, but this tops the lot. Are you seriously fucking comparing someone who is literally dying and needs all hands on deck to save their life to a patient refusing an exam by multiple students when they only require one by their actual doctor and would find it distressing/uncomfortable/traumatic? Please don't tell me that you typed that bs with a straight face.