To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

[Whatsnextforus4]

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

With my first baby I was having a hard time and there were lots of complications, 5 hours in I was asked if a first year student doctor could observe as they have to see a birth to finish that section of training. I said yes, mainly because I literally didn't give a shit who else was there but also because I'm a teacher and I train student teachers, everyone's got to learn.

It was the best decision ever as everyone who came in explained to him what was happening so we got to hear the info twice which was useful when I was so out of it!

Then when I went down to theatre he held my shoulders to stop them from shaking when they did the epidural and he said some amazing things to me to clam me down. He was fully at the business end through the forceps delivery and cried when my dd was finally born! He stayed another 6 hours longer than he should have and was the third person to hold her. Afterwards he thanked us and said it was the most amazing experience he'd had and he had learnt loads including how amazing and strong women are!!

I always let anyone in, if you want the best care in the future then they need to learn.

Only times I have refused has been when it has been a former student of mine! Just feels a bit icky...otherwise the more the merrier!

Miyah Yes I absolutely did complain. I thought it was absolutely disgusting.

I had a student doctor observe the birth of my DS. They've got to learn. The student was male but so are all my gynaecologists so I'm used to it. At that point I gave no fucks.

A student doctor saved my life by escalating to a consultant when things took a turn for the worse during labour and the midwives refused to get assistance. I used to work in post-grad education so always agree to have them in anyway but double glad I did that day.

I surprised myself by saying yes to an observer at my last smear test. Best smear I ever had!
Warmed the ‘thing-ame-doobry’ explained everything, reassured me while explaining to the student what a healthy cervix looked like (mine), whole process was gentle and repectful (usually they whip the ‘thing-ame-dooby’ out so fast it creates a vacuum and I feeel I’m being turned inside out!)got the chance to ask questions without being rushed out the door with my knickers in my hand.

I let a student stitch me up after my birth. I regretted it at the time because it took ages and I had three people poking around while my epidural wore off.

Having said that they did an excellent job and I healed good as new in a few weeks.

I always say yes however watching a junior doctor trying to take blood on a vulnerable older person is a no no

I work in the nhs and have students with me occasionally
Nobody has ever refused
The only time i would refuse for a trainee to do something to me would be to practice cannulating/taking blood but that’s purely because I’m very difficult to get blood from and I’m not very good with needles.

I think most people are quite happy and at the end of the day you only become really good at doing something by practicing

When we are trained to cannulate/take blood we use a dummy arm with amazingly fat visible veins which is so far from real life it’s untrue but we all have to start somewhere
I’ve overseen trainees taking blood and always make sure they know the procedure before hand, there’s nothing worse than being watched other than being stopped halfway through to correct someone - not nice for staff or patient

Reading others has reminded me about my dc3 birth. My midwife was leaving me and said the student would stay. For various reasons I didn't want a student but I was given no choice. I'm still convinced the trained midwife wasn't even in the room when DS was born. I was the last birth before she qualified and she was lovely.

I taught in a large school with a big sixth form for around 6 years, I taught a large number of pupils who went on to study medicine and other related professions,. I had a long difficult induced labour in the local hospital and was unwilling to have a student in the room because they might have been an ex student of mine. At all other times i have been happy to have student professionals of all types.

I've been asked many times if students could observe, ask questions etc - sometimes a doctor with just one or two students but a few times when there must have been up to a dozen students. I nearly always say yes as I want the doctors and nurses of the future to be armed with as much knowledge and information as possible, hoping it will help shape them into better medical practitioners. If students want to be involved with my treatment, and hands-on or more personal examinations it would depend on whether I felt I could trust them or not, but regardless I would nearly always give them the learning opportunity. As for the gender issue - I've had some great male students and a couple of young male nurses (one I think was a student) were the best on the ward taking care of my nan's personal care needs in the last week of her life.

Have never said no to an observation, etc. My ds was an interesting case with his issues so always had extra in on rounds. I also always agree to pre and post repair photos on him. Had some done myself when I was a teen and came down in with a nasty rash/ lumps filled with something and was quite ill in hosp as it was an unusual case and they wanted them for medical reference.
Always think it is important for students to learn on the job. Would never ever say no.

I hope you also recognize that it's really important that no one feels any compulsion to consent to students when they don't actually want to. There should be no pressure and no chiding of people who say no.

I completely respect the service user's right to refuse. If anything, I'd actually expected more people to utilise it. I actually very much object to the lack of transparency around it.

I recently discovered that there was a student midwife involved in DD's delivery. This isn't something I should only be finding out when DD is 4 I've also given feedback to a few of my placement areas that parents shouldn't be finding out that their child's nurse has a student with them only once they're on the doorstep. It puts people in an awkward position.

That said, I also realise that HCPs do have to learn somehow. It's better that this happens at a point where people know we're learning than when people see the uniform/ID of a qualified professional and simply trust that we have enough experience and knowledge to manage their care.

People refusing our involvement is likely to be less of an issue in a hospital setting (plenty we can be helping with usually) but when the alternative is us sitting in the office, I can understand why nurses in community services and clinics are reluctant to inform people ahead of time that there will be a student with them.

Not that I agree with it, I really don't. I've actually willed some parents to refuse my involvement so that I had to sit in the car during a visit, enabling me to really drive my point home.

I once had an examination with eight people in the room. It was obviously some kind of teaching experience, but I was not asked if it was OK. The examination was excruciatingly painful, so I assumed it was performed by a student. They were completely unsympathetic - for this reason, I might say no to a student examining me in the future, depending on how I was feeling.

Junior doc here. I'm very grateful to all the patients and their families who let me sit in on consultations during my medical school years.

Whilst I can understand that having med students sitting in on a consultation sometimes feels like being 'gawped at' - it's not just the patient being observed! This is where med students learn how to be doctors, by watching doctors - how to explain a diagnosis, how to break bad news, how to handle 'difficult' encounters, etc. (And sometimes it's where they learn not how to do these things...)

Also - I think it's been mentioned before that there seems to be some confusion between 'student doctors' (medical students, not yet qualified) and 'junior doctors' (qualified doctors with as much as ten years' experience). There's also no such thing as a 'GP student' - this is either a medical student, a foundation-level junior doctor on a GP placement (1-2 years' experience, still working under a high level of senior supervision) or a trainee GP (junior doc with 2-5+ years' experience).

I absolutely believe that patients have a right to decide who attends their consultations. But something to remember, perhaps - that brilliant consultant/GP you'd trust with your life? S/he was once the hapless student/junior sitting in the corner of the room, or failing to take bloods...!

I don’t really mind as long as there is one student - 2 or more would make me feel uncomfortable.
Although through bad experience I will never ever let any student put the cannula in my arm or take my blood. I had junior doctor trying to do it before I was induced with ds1 and she tried multiple times poking even a bone in my wrist! I ended up being so distressed that senior anaesthetist had to be called to do it in the end and my wrist was so badly punctured that he had to do it in crook of my elbow.
I was so mad I banned all junior doctors and student doctors from watching or ‘helping out’ during my birth. The midwife student was allowed to stay but she nearly fainted when I was cold and shaking in the bath they prepared for me - definitely a fail, cause I was not able to get out and they had to call 2 more midwives to get me out

When my seven-month-old dc had bronchiolitis and was in high dependency for a week, quite a few students came in, looked at her chart without asking and commented quite negatively on how she was/prognosis.

It was extremely distressing: not only did I not know who they were, neither had I given them permission to observe her and I certainly did NOT appreciate their comments on how poorly she was doing. Never again.

quickquickslowslow I think most people realize that the students are there to watch the doctor as well as the patient. However it will still feel like you are being gawped at with several people watching you! I also think that people understand that today's students are tomorrow's expert doctors, but again that doesn't change how people feel about being observed/practiced on.

@AssassinatedBeauty I was awful to him, barely let him in the room and doubt I even looked at him. It was my first labour, things weren't running smoothly and there was absolutely no way he was coming near me. I most probably was rude, which is not like me at all. That's probably why I regret it so much, the way I handled it. My daughter was the only baby born that day so it was probably going to be the most interesting part of his day!

@AssassinatedBeauty That's not at all the impression I was getting from what I have read of the thread, which is why I felt it was worth mentioning.

I had 3 different student midwives when I washing labour with my 7 week old dd. They were all amazing! And actually much more empathetic than the qualified midwives.

I have no problem with them and always say yes until recent years. I work in a 6th form and I now have at least three years worth of students who will now be hands on training to be doctors, nurses and midwives. That is just not a situation I'd choose to be in - however I still say yes and I've only run into ex students three times. Twice we both laughed and I asked if they would mind not being present after all - no issue. But the one I was totally unaware as I was mid labour, crowning, baby's heart stopped room filled with people and only realised afterwards that one of those was an ex student and yes she got a front row seat.

However reading some of these stories about multiple internal examinations. Nope. Sorry. One. I wouldn't tolerate that.

Up side as a patient is you generally get more time & care received often more comprehensive with the qualified health care professional when they have a student. The upcoming workforce is better equipped as they’ve had more opportunities to learn. Right of refusal is important, however I would only say no if I wasn’t able to cope with the situation. I think I’ve only refused once and it was a post natal examination. I even chose not to see that doctor again after that episode was complete, nothing to do with them, a great doctor (and continued to take the the DC), just the circumstances at that time.

I'm pretty fussy about who treats me anyway, after the negligence some GPs seem to think is acceptable, but it would honestly depend on what I'm being treated for as to whether I agree. I have hard to find veins so no blood taking practice but I let the student do the silver nitrate paint on my cervix and had a student sit in on a consultation & exam at the GUM clinic, all really good.

However, I'd have been exceptionally unhappy to be observed the day I went in distraught to be signed off and I am currently seeing an endocrinologist. Not for anything embarrassing per se, but something that embarasses and upsets me. I don't want extra bods privy to that!