To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

[Whatsnextforus4]

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

My dd was 4 weeks old and was also hospitalised with bronchitis and at the time they asked me if their students could observe and ask questions, I had absolutely no problem with it they have to learn.

Dd is nearly 16 years old now and loves me telling her how they were cooing over her.

Still don't understand why they don't practice routine things like exams and bloods on one another

We do. All the time. But we have normal anatomy. It’s important to get exposure to the “abnormal” stuff so we recognise it when we see it. Listening to a normal chest doesn’t help you differentiate between pneumonia and heart failure. You need to get used to recognising disease when you see it, by... seeing it.

I have no problem with them observing etc. I have only ever said no once and that was too letting a student do stitches post childbirth!!

A student doctor called for a test to show levels of something or other in the blood that the other doctors hadn’t done that showed my DF had actually had a mild heart attack. He went to have stents fitted the next day and they found two of his arteries were 95% blocked. Had they discharged him as they were going to because he wasn’t having a heart attack then he would have probably have had a much larger heart attack later on.

@Whatsnextforus4 - thank you so much for your kind and generous attitude to student observation. Patients that do this are absolutely fundamental in student learning and also in guiding young people's career choices to medicine. There is no substitute for a warts and all exposure to the real world. My DD is set on a career in medicine and her early patient contact and obs have been pivotal.
Quite separately, people that donate their bodies to medical schools at end of life are amazing, profoundly good people who are progressing medical learning no end. Thank you!

Yabu it's difficult for me to even go to gp, if it's something physical and non invasive I do allow it, if I'm climbing the walls then no danger. I've got asd can't stand a lot of people near me ... Three in a bed was never an option so three round a bed won't happen

After seeing the pain a junior doctor inflicted on my 6 week old after trying and failing to do a spinal tap and then also failing to insert a canula I would never let a very junior doctor do these kinds of things on my young children again. My son was in such such distress, it was awful and if it were to happen again I would tell them to stop and get someone who knows what they’re doing, Observing fine but practicing no.

I said no when I was seeing someone about anxiety issues. It was hard enough seeing someone without having extra people in.

Student doctors/nurses etc I don't mind at all but would prefer it if it's 1 or 2 rather than a swarm of them like in Scrubs following Dr Cox around.

My logic is that all professions (like medicine, nursing, teaching, speech therapy, physio etc) involve some practical training and we all had to train so unless I felt very uncomfortable then I would be happy to have them in

Of course they have to learn, but to give an example of when it might not be so straightforward... we had two miscarriages and she we fell pregnant again, I was in and out of hospital for tests and extra scans etc. One of the scans, a young male student doctor was asked to sit in with us, we were very emotional and thankfully it was good news on that occasion, but tensions were high in the room and the poor chap didn't know what to do with himself. He wasnt even going to be OBGYN but they have to see every dept. or something. There are occasions where I feel it comes down to the privacy and discretion of the patient. I specified no students if my labour went wrong, again... personal reasons, anxiety and feeling vulnerable etc as it was. Thankfully my labour was great, and I was lucky enough to have a student midwife with me the whole time, but I feel it's different when they are learning that field, rather than just being a fly on the wall during potentially very emotional or traumatic experiences or diagnosis etc.

It depends.
A person may have put off going to the doctors for months because it's an embarrassing (in their eyes) medical problem.
It could be very off putting to have plucked up the courage to go, only to be met with an extra person/s in the room.

I think the person is justified in those circumstances for saying they want a bit of privacy and they should not be made to feel guilty for requesting it.

Few points - @Nemo said they obtained consent prior to the anaesthesia, if people had read their original post.

Secondly - as another poster has said medical students will learn very little from just practicing on each other, they need to see the abnormal signs so they recognise them in future. You know, when you need them to. It is not "arrogance"

third point - just my personal experience, I never had to consent a patient for a prostate exam whilst they were anaesthetised firstly because a) they would consent to being examined awake b) a vaginal exam under anaesthesia is the start of most gynae operations ie it will be done anyway whereas prostate exam less commonly done. Im not saying that it is right and some of the practices on this thread are frankly shocking, but this was my experience of training. Did I examine a woman under general anaesthesia? No, because some patients felt comfortable enough for me to do it under supervision. Would it have been a different story if I was a man? Probably, yes.

I'm normally fine with it - have had students in observing vaginal scans (they stayed out while the whole "lube up and insert the dildocam" bit was done but came in for the movie show), student health visitors (I had to explain how to do the adjustment on the height chart for preemies cos the entire health visiting team seem to have a fucking brain fail on this one and all do it differently), students in with consultations at the GP, a student midwife doing the bulk of my care when DD2 was being born.

DD2 was in hospital the other year with pneumonia and an obliging case of childhood pneumonia in the middle of a July heatwave is quite hard to find - so we had pretty much every medical student in the building up there with a stethoscope for a listen, practising their chatting to children, practising taking medical histories etc. I refused one bunch though because I was just talked out and DD2 was getting fractious and they were batch number 3 that morning. DD2 did insist they all treated the patients in her playmobil hospital as well though before she'd speak to them.

I'd never bash someone who refused though - I have MH problems (PTSD) and a lot of them come from points in time where my consent as a patient was ignored and things were done to me regardless. I think consent is vital and should never be ignored or belittled.

Secondly - as another poster has said medical students will learn very little from just practicing on each other, they need to see the abnormal signs so they recognise them in future. You know, when you need them to. It is not "arrogance"

I wasn't talking about abnormalities. There's been a litany of posts even on this thread about routine procedures like bloods and pelvic exams, epidurals and the like being performed by people who obviously haven't practised enough. It's arrogance to inflict someone on others until they're demonstrated competence in such basics by practising on one another and it's a lot of the reason you hear why patients are saying no. The tone of your post just exemplifies it. Are you this sneery in real life to people?

I allowed a junior doctor (male) to conduct my smear under supervision of the nurse (female) yesterday. Awkward but they have to learn on someone!

I've said no to this but it was something like checking how dilated I was during birth or something. Appreciate it was selfish but my dignity felt more important

A long time ago when I was having my twins, I was often asked if Drs and nurses could sit in for their training. Usually ok, but when I was having my elc there were a flock of student Drs wanting in. I asked if they would be contributing anything positive, the answer was no. I really didn't feel like being gawped at, even in the name of medical training.

@purplestrawberry2

But if an internal exam is required then a woman should still be made aware of this and give her consent (which most will do if it’s a necessary part of their procedure)

Just because she consents to one being done as part of the procedure does NOT mean she consents for students to also come and have a go as practice. That should be explained separately and additional consent gained.

I was asked if a student doctor could 'attend'.
Turned out they did the procedure - took a piece of bone marrow out of my lower back!
I and my partner at the time were quite traumatized by the whole health thing going on.
It only came out in passing when my partner mentioned it - that she wasn't pressing on hard enough and the actual doctor stopped her and gave her further instructions.

Here's why I might say no - when I was a child, I had multiple hospitalisations and was more or less always being poked and prodded. I had many, many visits from consultants and their teams and millions of student doctors. In the end, I just thought - enough. This is invasive (I don't think I had that word, but I articulated it somehow). And I was fed up being gawped at.

So in my situation, it was the sheer volume of people that was the problem. I might feel differently now, and would like to be obliging, but I have iffy history with it.

I've only ever been asked once and I refused. I was seeing my GP for a smear and I was asked if a student could observe but I said no as I didn't want anyone unnecessary having a look.

I would also walk out rather than let a student take blood. I'm needle phobic so would be completely traumatised by even being there, so there's no way they would be practising on me.

I normally always say yes, they have to practice to learn after all. However, I did say no to a male student observing a female GP examining me to establish I had bacterial vaginosis, for obvious reasons.
Another time I wish I'd refused was when a student tried to take a blood sample from me in hospital. She was so nervous she was shaking and couldn't get the needle in my arm, after several attempts the doctor took over. I was recovering from an emergency operation and was really unwell so it wasn't great. If it had been routine bloods and I had been well, I wouldn't have minded at all. Everyone has to learn sometime. Equally, everyone has the right to refuse students being present.

@Hiphopfrog of course it wasn't selfish. They're asking. "No" is a perfectly reasonable response and requires no explanation or apology.

Also I think there is absolutely no justifying using women under GA for students to practice intimate exams without their consent. It’s assault and it’s completely wrong.

I always say yes but I was pissed off at not being asked when I was in labour. My son's heart rate kept dropping and the next thing I knew there were around 15 people in the room. I panicked thinking it must be serious for all of them to be there, asked what was happening, if they were doing an emeegency section or something. Nope! Some of the extra staff needed to be there but there were around 8 bloody students! No one asked my consent. I don't know if it's to do with the whole "oh all your dignity goes out the window during childbirth". I don't agree at all.

One of my dc has a rare genetic disorder plus other issues so becomes a freak show whenever students are around.

I am often conflicted because I want them to see the signs dc has because they might never see them again other than in a text book. But hate that dc needs to be looked at by so many people like a show and he gets quite sensitive to this so sometimes we have to refuse.