To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

[Whatsnextforus4]

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

When I had ds 1 I got a male student in the delivery suite. Everyone else had refused. I’m not proud. I was absolutely thrilled when he came to me and the poor love in the next bed got 6... yes 6 giggling students who almost wet themselves with glee every time the baby moved. He was able to come along to the birth and then came to see me afterwards which I thought was lovely. With ds2 I had another student who was nearly sick and almost passed out when I tore .
I don’t mind students because we all have to learn but I would have drawn the line at 6 of them.

I had a student MW at the birth of dc3, she was lovely, when ds was born blue she calmed me down while the other MW looked after him.
My GP surgery is a training centre and they always have students, GP students are already qualified, they have done 2 years post graduation training already.

i get the canula thing - i think students should be forced to do it on each other until they're competent.

and they should limit so you never have more than one.

This is one I don't mind students having a go, I have crap veins and they like to hide. I've also had loads of canulas and bloods taken (at one time I was on weekly bloods) And I don't mind a bit of digging.

Even phlebotomists have struggled, but I can say, OK left a bit now, push a bit further.

Sorry that sounds a bit, er, well

Anyway I am the perfect person (unless it's an emergency) to practice taking blood from.

Depends really. I’ve no problem with students having a go with taking history, observing etc and lots of procedures. But I do say no to bloods (very bad veins) and stictches post birth. I had a lovely student midwife during my labour who was so kind and helpful. But I felt on the ward that the students weren’t always supernumerary and were being used to plug gaps.

I am a HCP, I needed a speculum examination during early labour, was asked by female Dr if med student could do it, i agreed, when they came in student was a male, I refused. I didn't want to have to bump into this male student elsewhere in hospital when I returned to work.

However, it was the first day of placements for the first year student midwives, and I had one assigned to the night shift midwife and one to the day shift (when I gave birth). They were both lovely, and it was nice that one of them got to assist in a normal vaginal delivery on their first shift.
It meant I rarely got left on my own, which was good as I was vomiting badly for a while and also we had our dog waiting out in the car (middle of winter), so DH could pop outside to check on him now and then, without me being alone.

Depends on the circumstances. If was about to get a cancer diagnosis I wouldn’t want the extra audience but for a routine exam I wouldn’t mind.

I’ve always allowed students in however I’m not sure I would anymore. I had an injection into my back, that I’d had many times before, and the spinal surgeon brought in about 7 students. He took absolutely ages doing it, stopping and starting, and said “if you want to get really pernickety you could get the needle deep, down there!”. At that point I got a massive shock down my leg. My leg was completely numb for over a week, I’ve been left with permanent pins and needles and severe nerve pain.

I don’t mind student nurses treating me on wards, student doctors can come have a chat with me I think that’s as far as I will allow it to go.

I work in nurse & AHP education. I find out where the students are from first (three Unis in my city do these courses) as if they’re ‘my’ students then I tend to say no, as I’d lose any gravitas I ever had!

I've not read the full thread (about to head off to school) but wanted to add my bit.

I have always said yes to trainee health professionals and never had a problem with it. However I have put in my birth notes that I do not want a trainee and that they should not ask me about it. I gave a brief explanation which was that I had a trainee midwife during my last birth (which I was fine with), I had been told she was in her final year. However as labour progressed it became apparent that she was being prompted to do everything. She really didn't have a clue and I wasn't treated particularly well as a consequence. DD's blood pressure also got scarily low (so much so that the room was flooded with doctors and an incubation unit brought in) and she just stood there. Clearly she wasn't ready and probably needed further training and perhaps I should be open to further trainees so that they can learn (because they need to learn somehow). However this time I don't want to put myself in that situation. Labour is hard enough as it is without the extra worry.

So many students when I was having undercarriage issues I felt like charging entry!

I don’t always agree to students.

I have psychiatric problems and don’t like being talked about like I’m not there or my issues being shouted so everyone can hear.

I refuse if it's for dd. This is because when seriously poorly the trainee doctor who was told to do her blood test was so incompetent that he caused my daughter to suffer far more than necessary. He clearly was not confident taking bloods, and tried nearly 15 times, with dd becoming hysterical. At this point I was very angry, told him to leave and get someone else. A nurse found a vein immediately and did the blood test with no problems. It was nothing to do with the state of dd's veins, it was just an arrogant young man who had no idea what he was doing and wouldn't admit that despite it causing suffering to a child. I will not put dd through that again.

I have always accommodated students and due to 3 rare conditions I have I am often asked if I am able to come and talk with them, I have a whole spiel explaining the conditions what they mimic and the dermatological one often leaves me sitting starkers so they can examine fully.

I was SA but I see this as a way of reclaiming my body.

The dermatological one is fairly rare and lots to see, biopsies to be taken as well so a good learning experience.

The GP also often asks me to come in or sends her student for a home visit. In my late teens and early 20s, I spent approx 9 months of each year in a psych unit and often talked to the students there and let them sit on ward rounds,

It was only during my last admission to the unit I objected as I came into the ward round and stopped it after about a minute to find out who each one around the table was and what relevance to me they were, one identified herself as a medical student - no name - no consent requested - the fault lay with the psych who despite communication being a fundamental of psychiatry failed on that day. I requested that all those not relevant leave the room so that left 4 of us, inc me.

I did agree to her coming to talk to me on the ward but said if consent had been requested rather than assumed I would have been happy to have her. She sat in on everyone else on the ward round so she still got a feel for it, as there were 19 other patients.

Didn’t see whether anyone else had made this point on the thread but just to clarify, there is a huge difference between medical students who are sometimes (misleadingly perhaps) called ‘student doctors’ who have not qualified, are not registered and do not have a medical degree and ‘trainees’ or junior doctors who may have up to a decade of experience as a doctor and are qualified and registered, many having passed specialist exams.
Some of the posts seem to be referring to actual qualified junior doctors as student doctors because they have been introduced perhaps as trainees- this term often doesn’t inspire confidence but can refer to highly experienced people!
Hope that’s not too pedantic, in my view it’s entirely legitimate to refuse to be seen by anyone that you don’t feel comfortable with, but junior doctors are quite different to medical students, even if both groups are learning from seeing you.

Not to say that there are not doctors who may be learning new procedures and may not be as good as more senior doctors, and agree that there are often times especially in paediatrics where they should seek senior help in preference to distressing a child in any way....

Or any patient. Knowing your limits is a crucial part of being a professional

@CautiousPenguin I made that point. It bloody winds me up there shouldnt be the term "student doctor" they are medical students (unqualified at uni) or junior doctors (qualified, not yet GPs or consultants). To be fair, your junior doctor is probably much better at doing your bloods / cannula than a consultant in many cases!

Thanks @purplestrawberry2 as you can probably tell i really felt the need to make the point! Sorry I didnr notice you already had....the medical registrar (although a trainee) is often one of the most practically competent doctors in the hospital and is def not a student doctor!
Right I will stop derailing now!

@CautiousPenguin well I nearly started to talking about how this misconception really hurt junior doctors during the junior doctor contract debacle but I will sit on my hands......

@purplestrawberry2 Me too!
Now firmly sitting on my hands and off my soapbox, but I couldn’t resist...

@CautiousPenguin

I refused a trainee medic when I opened up to a GP at my first and only emergency psych appointment. I couldn’t hack two people in the room.

Hey, I am a paediatric doctor. I went through six years of medical school. It is obviously anyone's right to say no at any time for any reason (which they do not need to disclose!). I would so much rather someone said no than they were uncomfortable in a consultation/examination and it affected their care.

I learnt cannulas by firstly doing it on a plastic arm (learn procedure, securing etc), then on my friend (horrific bruising), then I went to endoscopy/day surgery and did them on well patients with good veins for a while. Then and only then did I attempt poorly inpatients. There is no point trying a cannula for the first time on someone with rubbish veins! You won't get it, hurt them and you'll lose confidence.

I learnt to do internal examinations with women under GA. BUT they were having gynae operations. Also I went round in the morning (by myself, so no consultant pressure), introduced myself, explained it would only be me and I would be fully supervised. I got signed consent and kept a copy and placed a copy in the notes.

Yes, everyone has to learn, but there are ways of doing it so that you learn on people who are happy with this and whose care/ mental well-being is not affected.

Nemo firstly, thank you for undergoing all the hard work that you’ve obviously done!

I was a bit alarmed at something in your post though - about learning to do internal exams on patients under GA. does that really happen? Although actually I assume consent is gained before the patient is out under? Do medical schools really make you practice on friends arms re inserting cannulas??

I agreed to students checking my abdomen after a c section - I did call a halt after the third one, though - getting too sore!