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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

540 replies

Whatsnextforus4 · 10/09/2018 11:46

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

OP posts:
drspouse · 11/09/2018 09:48

I was asked if two student doctors could practice taking histories on me when I was in with a suspected miscarriage. As I'd already given a history about 5 times and I was bored of waiting I said yes.
The students asked me if the pregnancy was "wanted" and called it an "abortion".
So I'm happy for them to sit in but after that I'm not letting them practice on me!

drspouse · 11/09/2018 09:49

(And yes, they were medical students, not newly qualified).

NemoRocksMyWorld · 11/09/2018 09:54

Twllbach...I fully introduced myself and consented the women before. I told them multiple times they could say no and assured them I would be supervised. I thanked them if they agreed. If they said no I obviously didn't do it.

Of course med schools don't make you practice on each other. But me and a friend would rather do the first couple on each other than a patient. Also it helps you understand what patients have to go through! I have also drink all the fortified drinks and had an Ng tube placed!

TwllBach · 11/09/2018 10:32

Nemo thank you for clarifying Grin

That is one of the many reasons (alongside definitely not being clever enough!) I couldn’t be a doctor... no way on earth would I be letting my friends stick needles in me GrinGrin

KipperTheFrog · 11/09/2018 10:58

I have never said no to students. Although the student midwife during DD1's birth may have wished I'd said no! May have traumatised her....

Braeburns · 11/09/2018 11:11

I've always said yes to students observing and sometimes practicising (midwives/maternity/gynae and dermatology) as GP I was enrolled with was linked to teaching hospital and can see the value for trainees. I've also taken part in a dermatology study which was kinda cool.

BUT I totally understand why some people would not want this as you can feel like an object being prodded/examined/stared at.

I have to say I've always been very clearly asked if I would consent and never any pressure to do so. If you feel up for it it can be interesting as the consultants will often explain a bit more about what they are doing and why (I apparently have some unique skin features).

sanssherif · 11/09/2018 11:18

Dr spouse the medical term for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. Abortion meaning end of pregnancy. It wasnt an insult, they probably didnt think.

CornishYarg · 11/09/2018 12:04

I had a colposcopy (?) following an abnormal smear when I was 22. I agreed to 4 medical students observing, but unfortunately, the doctor doing the examination then just talked to the students and virtually ignored me. The only time I remember him saying anything to me was when he sharply told me to keep my legs open wide Blush I also recall him describing me as a "classic case" and getting each student in turn to have a good look which was mortifying. The nurse did her best to explain what was going on but the whole experience left me feeling very exposed, vulnerable and embarrassed. I did make a complaint but nothing much came of it other than my comments being fed back to the doctor.

The experience did put me off having students present for a few years as I felt it led to the doctor being distracted from being compassionate towards me. A few years on, I realised the doctor was just an arse and would probably have been the same regardless of who was in the room. But I would still be wary of too many spectators for an intimate examination like that.

drspouse · 11/09/2018 12:09

Dr spouse the medical term for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. Abortion meaning end of pregnancy. It wasnt an insult, they probably didnt think.

I am aware of that. It's still horrendously insensitive and something that they should be told not to do before they are let loose on patients.

sanssherif · 11/09/2018 12:12

True, but sometimes, especially with young students with little life experience then these situations are how they learn. It takes fucking up to not make that mistake again. Just shit that you were the one to receive it, and it must have been horrible.

Miyah · 11/09/2018 13:08

Unfortunately over the past few decades it was commonplace for medical students to practice internal examinations on women under GA who had absolutely no knowledge about it... let alone consented to it! Women would go in for gynae procedures and whilst still under GA a group of students would be brought in and would each take a turn practicing an internal on her.

There will still be practicing doctors now who will have learnt this way. Thankfully times are moving on but I think it does show how attitudes can be overwhelmingly poor when it comes to women and consent in healthcare.

drspouse · 11/09/2018 13:16

If they're told not to ask such questions they shouldn't. And if they haven't been told, they should be. I'm not a guinea pig.
And as for "was it a wanted pregnancy" I'm pretty sure that was a question from the 1960s when they were screening for unsafe abortions. This was 10 years ago. It shouldn't be on anyone's radar.

BackToTheFuschia7 · 11/09/2018 13:21

@TwllBach I’m glad to hear Nemo sought consent but after reading about these examinations on this thread I’ve done some reading online. I was shocked to find it has been standard practice in some countries and only in recent years advised against. Horrifying isn’t it?

Miyah · 11/09/2018 13:23

I honestly don’t understand how it was even in a thing, especially in recent decades. Surely it is entirely illegal and nothing short of assault?

BackToTheFuschia7 · 11/09/2018 13:24

Me either Miyah I couldn’t believe what I was reading.

BackToTheFuschia7 · 11/09/2018 13:29

Also, we feel pain for a reason. We are meant to speak up during an examination if it’s painful so it can be stopped or the angle of the instruments changed. Examining women who were unconscious and couldn’t speak out for themselves surely left some feeling sore or worse on waking. It’s appalling. What on earth must they have thought had happened to them.

Miyah · 11/09/2018 13:34

Yep it’s absolutely grim and shocking.
I wonder whether any of the drs would be bothered if their mum/sister/girlfriend was used as a slab of meat for a row of students to practice vaginal examinations, without knowledge or consent when under GA for a separate procedure.

mummyretired · 11/09/2018 13:36

I stipulate no students if I am unconscious, as years ago I had a Bartolins access lanced under general anaesthetic and I'm pretty sure they used me to practice internal exams while I was out. Not appropriate given the pain I was already in - I came round on a trolley with 4 people holding me down and got an infection in the wound which took weeks to shift.

mummyretired · 11/09/2018 13:38

X-post with Micah - so pleased to have my experience backed up!

mummyretired · 11/09/2018 13:38

*Miyah, apologies

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 11/09/2018 13:57

I do usually consent, although I utterly agree that it's the patient's choice. However, I wish they would exercise some restraint in their numbers. I think it should be a maximum of 2 at a time.

I was in hospital recently with pneumonia and was asked by a doctor if she could bring in some medical students on their first day. I said yes, but I didn't realise that there would be 4 of them and they would all have to take turns listening to my lung through my back, tapping on my back etc. It didn't help that I had had a shower shortly before they arrived and wasn't coping with the heat - I was soaked in sweat when they arrived and they had to touch my horrible sweaty back, yuck! For some reason I had thought that she just wanted the students to talk to me - probably because she said she was going to get them to ask me some questions, she didn't mention the physical exam. The doctor was very nice but I do think 4 is a bit much when they all have to repeat the same thing on you.

There was a woman on my ward who had some sort of underlying immune issue causing the pneumonia, and she said that because she was an unusual case, she was frequently in hospital and was asked to let the students talk to/examine her all the time, and although she almost always said yes, it got very wearing after a while.

jcyclops · 11/09/2018 14:30

My dear mother was being examined by a consultant for "lady problems" with entourage of students/juniors observing around the bed. The consultant was paged and left the scene to take the call, leaving mum with legs akimbo before a group of embarrassed students. Mum decided to sing them a song! The consultant returned to find everyone rolling about in hysterics.

purplestrawberry2 · 11/09/2018 14:35

@BackToTheFuschia7 I was in medical school 15 years ago, in UK. We NEVER did internal examinations on patients whilst they were asleep unless having prior took documented and written consent. I am appalled to hear that any other UK medical school was / is doing so either this recently. Its appalling.

SwarmOfCats · 11/09/2018 14:41

I have chronic illnesses, and my GP surgery is a teaching surgery linked to the local uni. I usually say yes to having students as the qualified GP is always there, prompts them and fills in any blanks. However, I’ve politely declined in the past if I’m in too much pain/completely exhausted and can’t handle going through everything twice.

I personally can’t cope with students for gynaecological appointments because they make me anxious - I tried once and having everything the Doctor was doing explained to a watching student totally freaked me out!

Arthuritis · 11/09/2018 14:44

I always say yes, even when really I don't want them there, because I was a student nurse once and I had to learn.

A medical student asked if he could deliver my daughter and I agreed but there were complications and another dr took over but the medical student was fantastic. He stayed with me throughout and really supported me. I was glad that I agreed.

On another occasion I was asked if a student could practice inserting a cannula. I hate having this done but still agreed. They had a couple of unsuccessful goes before the dr took over.

Everyone has to learn and I've always found them to be well supervised with a qualified dr ready to take over.