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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why you would say 'No' to student doctors/nurses helping/observing your care?

540 replies

Whatsnextforus4 · 10/09/2018 11:46

DD has been quite poorly in hospital with bronchiolitis. She's on the mend now and We can go home today.
Since we've been in hospital the care has been fantastic were so so appreciative of the nhs.
We've been asked alot if junior doctors and student nurses can help and observe our daughters care and obviously have said yes. 4 doctors checked her over for discharge today and while it took longer it was 4 sets of ears and eyes ensuring all was ok all overseen by a qualified doctor.
DH got talking to a nurse and she said alot of people do refuse to let them in.
AIBU to wonder why anyone would decline as those are our future doctors and nurses and they will never learn if they can't see and do ALL of the illnesses and problems that they will have to deal with. You can only learn so much from a book.

OP posts:
TwistedStitch · 10/09/2018 16:40

I'm sure it will be a real comfort to all the women who were violated in this way to know that you don't believe it butterfly.

Liquoricelake · 10/09/2018 16:41

Sorry, according to the article it was in 2015 that France was making moves to make such exams on unconsenting women illegal.

26mcjrfm · 10/09/2018 16:43

I agree re immaturity, however they are (mainly) young university students having fun. As a fellow HCP, I enjoyed my parties, however I would hope students would be professional on their placements. They are quite heavily sanctioned if the placement reports back to the university (in my opinion). Although they shouldn't be discussing what they experienced, as long as they don't mention names or identifying features, there is no way anyone could relate their experience back to an individual.

VeryBerrySeptember · 10/09/2018 16:49

I was once in hospital 2 nights with a bad enough problem but on a ward where frankly everyone else was in a terrible state - pre or post operatively. I was the only one fit enough to be practiced on tbh!

Theweasleytwins · 10/09/2018 16:49

I had a lovely student midwife in my last appointment, I had my toddlers with me as no available childcare. She was lovely and friendly

She tried to find the heartbeat, had difficulty and apologised if she was hurting me. The midwife took over and found the heartbeat straight away

Sure the student caused me a bit of discomfort but she was lovely

CurcubitaPepo · 10/09/2018 16:50

When I was 16, some 30+ years ago I got the pill from my local family planning clinic. It was their policy on your second visit to conduct a smear.

Female doctor breezed in saying “you don’t mind if there’s a (male) medical student present do you” to which I replied “yes, actually I would mind very much”.

See, now, some 30 years later, this probably wouldn’t bother me that much, but I can’t for the life of me think why a doctor would think that a child, who Was having their first pelvic exam wouldn’t have issues with this. Any why it was phrased as it was in the style of a leading question. Supervising doctor was most put out.

26mcjrfm · 10/09/2018 16:50

*was meant to say "in my experience"

Isentthesignal · 10/09/2018 16:52

The thing I found most disturbing was them telling us about the thoughts running through their heads when they were giving a woman a rectal exam - meeting the husband afterwards and thinking I bet he wishes he could do what I have just done - they were probably good at acting professional but there was nothing professional about their thoughts! One breast surgeon was breast obsessed - you'd have thought he'd have seen his full but oh no. I think he's in plastics now.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 10/09/2018 16:52

Curcubita
That's another issue
Very young people / vulnerable poeple esp girls can have really dififculty saying no in those situations.
They grit their teeth and go through with it and then don't go back.

kalinkafoxtrot45 · 10/09/2018 16:52

I have no problem with students doing an ENT exam on me, or abdominal scan, or sitting in on a straightforward consultation. I have a HUGE problem with anyone unnecessary being at an intimate exam or at an appointment to discuss something distressing.

Practitioners of all levels need to remember they are dealing with a real live person, not an just interesting case. While I was being treated for conjunctivitis, the doctor ran off and gathered a number of colleagues, all of whom proceeded to peer into my eye and mutter about how interesting it was, and nobody would tell me what was going on until I clamped my eye shut and refused to open it until an explanation was forthcoming. Turns out I have an unusual but harmless retinal abnormality which a doctor might only see once or twice in their career. All fine, I don’t mind everyone having a look, but tell ME first!

OutPinked · 10/09/2018 16:59

I have said no a couple of times, once was following a missed miscarriage when I was feeling extremely raw and emotional. I didn’t want to feel like an animal in the zoo being gawped at.

MaryDollNesbitt · 10/09/2018 17:07

While I was in labour with DD, they had to do foetal scalp blood sampling. I was asked if the junior doctors could watch the procedure. I think my less than polite response was: 'I don't give a shit who watches - just fucking smoke her out already!' BlushBlushBlush

Honestly, I'm happy for any trainee health professional to observe and learn. If it helps them - batter in.

oakthorn · 10/09/2018 17:13

@twistedstitch notwithstanding the student issue how are you going to cope when the majority of Breast surgeons are male?

TwistedStitch · 10/09/2018 17:17

I probably wouldn't cope very well oakthorn, I would find it extremely distressing. But if the only specialist available is a man I would have no choice. At my surgery however there are 3 female GPs so whilst I have the choice I will choose to exercise it.

MoonFacesMum · 10/09/2018 17:30

I always say yes. However, when in hospital having DC2 (ELCS) my midwife had a student midwife. All fine, she seemed nice. Until the following conversation went on over the top of my head:

Midwife “This must be the first c section you’ve seen.”
Student “No, I’ve seen quite a few. Too many.”

If I hadn’t been so shocked I like to think I would have have said something about her rude and judgmental comment, and how discussing a patient’s choice in front of her in this way, whilst prepping her for theatre when she was feeling nervous and vulnerable was totally inappropriate. Also sounds like she didn't really have anything left to learn about c sections if she’d already seen “too many!” The midwife didn’t say anything either. The bloody student hadn’t even bothered to enquire as to what happened during my first birth to lead to my ELCS.

Then when I went to theatre, everybody had a student, there were about 15 people in there. It made me feel like a slab of meat.

Currently 36 weeks with DC3. I’m going to be more discerning about who gets in for this one. I know they need to learn, but I’ve done my bit.

Happygummibear · 10/09/2018 17:31

Oh and had a trainee midwife with me during labour. The epidural was traumatic and she was one of 3 people pinning me down..... not sure she will ever thank me for that experience!

Sashkin · 10/09/2018 17:39

@butterfly It pains me to say this as a physician, but that absolutely used to happen. We were specifically warned at medical school to refuse if invited to examine unconscious women, and to report it immediately to the medical school. It was not ethical (ever), but it was not frowned on in the 1970s and 80s. I trained in the 90s and there were still a few dinosaurs trying to rope students into doing it.

I can’t imagine it happening now, AT ALL. There may be one or two people who “see nothing wrong with it”, but there are so many people in theatre once the patient is anaesthetised, and students rotate so often that somebody would report it. I have worked in Canada and their healthcare system and ethical standards are really different (not lower, just a completely different focus. Stuff that is unthinkable in the UK is normal practice, stuff I do every day in the UK is seen as risking a complaint).

I’m also just going to be a pedant and point out that student doctors are not the same thing as junior doctors. Student doctors are not qualified doctors. Junior doctors are “all qualified doctors who are not GPS or hospital consultants”. Not unreasonable to say no to student doctors, pretty unreasonable to say no to junior doctors (you are not going to get a consultant coming in from home at 3am unless there is a damn good reason).

ellendegeneres · 10/09/2018 18:05

I had a student midwife and qualified midwife with ds1 and the student was so lovely, asked lots of questions to make me feel more comfortable and made it clear that at any point if I felt uncomfortable she’d step out. It was to be her first actual delivery and she cried almost as much as I did bless her when they rushed me to theatre.

Second pregnancy the consultant I was referred to asked if I minded a student sitting in. I said no, having seen the dr before and him been very reasonable and easy to talk to- well, this was like this pillocks time to shine (not) and set about talking to me like I was 12 and my pregnancy some silly mistake. When he refused to refer for induction (very real reasons for inducing) I asked him outright was he speaking to me like I was a child for a power trip and to show off in front of the student or was he feeling unwell. He hustled me out, I was seen the same day by a different consultant who approved induction and advised me to make a formal complaint- i did.

The only time I’ve ever said no was because it was a routine gp appointment about my mental health and I knew I couldn’t talk as freely with my dr with the student in the room. Dr when realising why I was there wrote on my notes no students.

Munchyseeds · 10/09/2018 18:13

Wouldn't bother me in any way...we all have to learn!

ellendegeneres · 10/09/2018 18:14

Oh! One other. My son, a known immune suppressed patient I took in with what I knew to be a throat infection. Call it a mother’s instinct or having dealt with countless in the past. Dr asks student to examine patient and student says all clear. Dr smiles at me and says bring him back if his symptoms worsen. I raised my eyebrows and said ‘um, hadn’t you better look at his throat? All well and good looking in his ears, listening to his chest etc, but the issue is his throat.’
Student proceeds to wrestle with my child, despite me repeatedly saying how to do it to get it done with minimal distress, totally ignores me. Son threw up on him. Gp couldn’t hide the grin, takes a quick look how I’ve been saying to and confirms severe tonsillitis.

I read both the riot act, student for not listening to me at all and causing my child so much upset, gp for allowing it to get to the point my child vomited and finding humour in the students failings rather than being a good teacher.
See, stuff like that will put you off letting a student in for examinations

m0therofdragons · 10/09/2018 18:44

I had a student midwife and was happy to help. However, her catalogue of errors (and poor level of supervision) put dd at risk and resulted my my recovery from birth taking 10 months. I blame her supervisor but I'd never allow a trainee to physically practice on me again. Observe yes, touch no!

Justanotheruser01 · 10/09/2018 18:49

Things like my smear or anything else in that department due to previous trauma id have to say no i find it hard enough possibly one at a push could observe but not do anything. I know the argument how will we ever have doctors and nurses without training but i just cant. Anything else I'm fine wity

aspoonfulofyourownmedicine · 10/09/2018 18:54

I said no to students when delivering my son, but when the time came, I agreed to a student midwife, and she was amazing. I did have to be checked twice for dilation etc but in the end I didn't care and she was a massive help. Thanks to her and her quick thinking, my son arrived safely, it was very nearly a different story.

At the end of the day, I learn from hands on experience rather than sitting in a classroom, so I can see it from their point of view too.

oakthorn · 10/09/2018 18:54

@twistedstitch please be assured that my dealings have been nothing but positive. I have been treated with respect and dignity. I would hope that everyone has the same experience

ShinyMe · 10/09/2018 18:57

I once had a smear done by a student nurse who was previously one of my pupils for several years at school. I told her I didn't mind but would totally understand if she'd rather not, but she was excellent, and extremely professional, and in fact did one of the least uncomfortable smears I've ever had.