Death penalty

[birthdayboo]

I don't quite understand the logic of people who want to murder people who have committed awful crimes.

I do understand saying you wish you could, verbalising the anger felt and not literally meaning you would actually carry out a killing yourself.

I don't understand when people swear they would actually kill

One horrific crime doesn't go away because you commit another horrific crime such as murder on the guilty?

I don't understand the death penalty either - I totally agree that life seems too good for some people, however it's still legalising murdering a human being to have the state kill them - so I just can't get my head around murdering someone because they murdered someone. Perhaps some form of voluntary self administered euthanasia being available by prescription to individuals who will never leave prison in their lifetime would be a solution to how much money it costs to house prisoners however it's not even like people get death penalty and it happens soon, they spend ages and have money spent on holding them prior to execution

The only argument I see as a real obstacle is 4, Jamieson. I simply don’t believe that about costs. Maybe in the US where they have whole life tariffs used more frequently and multiple appeals but not here.

The deterrent argument to me is neither here nor there and as I said above in the kinds of cases in which I would support the death penalty, I would imagine miscarriages of justice will be very unlikely due to the level of evidence required

Wow, I am astonished at people posting to say they would find it acceptable for some people to be executed in error!

Seriously? You would be happy to be executed in error to ensure a safer society for everyone else? Not that capital punishment does ensure a safer society despite some people's fondness for the concept.

There is no sane person who would be prepared to be executed for something they hadn't done for the perceived good of strangers and no-one, surely, would accept any level of risk of their children or other loved ones being executed by mistake. If you won't accept that risk personally then you should not think it an acceptable risk for anyone to have to endure.

Surely in this day and age we have progressed enough scientifically for mistakes not to be made re guilt and culpability?

Can I ask those in favour of the death penalty, did you vote Leave in the EU referendum? I have read that support for the death penalty is a very reliable indication of voting Leave.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544

I voted stay, and please don’t get me started on the total fucking idiocy of leaving.
I’m not sure how I would vote about capital punishment but what I do know is that if anyone hurt me or mine , I’d want to see them fry

Can I ask those in favour of the death penalty, did you vote Leave in the EU referendum

I voted to stay.

Can I ask those in favour of the death penalty, did you vote Leave in the EU referendum?

Remain

I voted Leave but am opposed to the death penalty

@Aintnothingbutaheartache
That’s actually quite funny.
Because everyone in prison right now is definitely guilty.
The American justice system is the prime example of why we should never reintroduce the death penalty.

Thank god we no longer have it and thank god (hopefully) it will never go to the public vote.

Why is it funny low?

Because you think mistakes aren’t made.
Why do you think that

The thing is surely less people would be convicted of crimes if we had the death penalty?

If jurors had even a small niggle of doubt, they would more likely vote innocent as they couldn't face the fact they killed someone innocent and as there's no alternative the killer could walk free.
But now people with small niggles of doubt, knwo they aren't sending someone to die, so are surely more likely to convict.

That's my thoughts, don't know if correct scientifically or not.

I'm against the death penalty because when is it ever right to take a life? We get told all our lives murder and killing is wrong, yet so many want state supported murder? How can we tell people jot to do something if we then do it on a massive scale?
Don't get me wrong murderers, rapists etc should spend all life in prison, and have to face their consequences.

Aintnothing, science in terms of crime detection really isn't as infallible as you suggest, as demonstrated by the reports of miscarriages of justice still emerging on a regular basis.

Oh I see.
My argument is probably more emotive than practical .
There are many cases where it has been proved inconclusively that someone is guilty, science is a wonderful thing

Can we remove the ‘in’ from that one 😳

Surely in this day and age we have progressed enough scientifically for mistakes not to be made re guilt and culpability?

Here are some general statistics:

'The United States may be putting more innocent people to death than previously thought. According to a sweeping new statistical analysis made public today, the rate of wrongful death sentences in the U.S. is probably much higher than experts have estimated.
Authors of the study say that their “conservative estimate of the proportion of erroneous convictions” is 4.1 percent, or approximately twice the number actually exonerated and set free from death row. This could mean that approximately 120 of the roughly 3,000 inmates on death row in America might not be guilty, while additional scores of wrongfully convicted inmates are serving life in prison after their death sentences were reduced over technical legal errors
time.com/79572/more-innocent-people-on-death-row-than-estimated-study/

1. Up to 4% of prisoners who are currently sitting on death row may be innocent according to a study published this year.

1. 35% of inmates that were sentenced to death from 1973 to 2004 had their sentences changed to life imprisonment.
2. The State of California is thought to have spent $4 billion in total since 1978 on the execution of prisoners.
3. One of the most persistent problems in the judicial system is an inadequate amount of public representation in low-income death penalty cases.
4. Death row inmates are exonerated at a rate that is 9 times more frequent than those who are convicted of murder without the death sentence.
5. At least 10 people have been known to have been executed wrongly because their innocence was proven after their death.
6. It is estimated that another 330 people have been put to death incorrectly over this same period, but the facts have not yet come to light in their specific cases.
7. Since 1973, 144 people on death row have been exonerated accounting for just 1.6 percent.

Although the average comes to about 10 people per year being executed even though they are innocent in the US, here’s a staggering thought: only 39 people were executed in the United States in 2013. That means 25% of them, if the average holds, were innocent.' brandongaille.com/20-wrongfully-convicted-death-penalty-statistics/

These are the 53 countries that have the death penalty - not exactly a picture of countries known for progressive human rights -
Afghanistan
India
Nigeria
US
Iran
Japan
Taiwan
Kuwait
Zimbabwe
Libya
Thailand
Guyana
Uganda
Bangladesh
Iraq
Indonesia
Botswana
UAE
Bahamas
Cuba
Belarus
Yemen
Saudi Arabia
Vietnam
Syria
Egypt
South Sudan
The 53 countries that have the death penalty
Afghanistan
India
Nigeria
US
Iran
Japan
Taiwan
Kuwait
Zimbabwe
Libya
Thailand
Guyana
Uganda
Bangladesh
Iraq
Indonesia
Botswana
UAE
Bahamas
Cuba
Belarus
Yemen
Saudi Arabia
Vietnam
Syria
Egypt
South Sudan
Ethiopia
China
Sudan
Comoros
Somalia
Barbados
Malaysia
Chad
Pakistan
Oman
Singapore
St Kitts and Nevis
St Lucia
Bahrain
North Korea
Equatorial Guinea
St Vincent and the Grenadines
Palestinian territories
Trinidad and Tobago
Lesotho
Antigua and Barbuda
Belize
Dominica
Jamaica
Jordan

You’re right. Don’t bring back the death penalty there’s too much room for error.
If ever I was in the position (God forbid) I would do it myself because the law is a fucking joke.
Just look at some of the sentences given for the most appalling, sickening crimes

@Aintnothingbutaheartache
There in lies your problem
Emotive

As we see from the American justice system, there are far bigger things at stake than lives. Politics/careers
People are convicted on very slim margins. And rarely a case is a clear cut as one would like to think.

Even the whole prison system (billions of dollars worth) has its own inherent issues.

If it were as simple as, the person murdered someone and they die. Then that would be a different story. But like so much in life, it’s never that simple really.

No it’s not simple

The main purpose of the law and punishment is to act as a deterrent to stop people committing crime.
If the punishment is not credible and severe enough it will not serve as a deterrent, and will not stop people committing criminal acts.
We do not have severe enough punishments in this country so bad people will carry on committing crimes.
The death penalty for murder should be brought back to act as a deterrent to men and women thinking of committing this crime.

The executions at Nuremberg were botched and most of them died of suffocation rather than having their necks broken. It took a long time and they suffered

You don't need to go back as far as Nuremberg these problems are regularly reported in the US - including with 'lethal injection', 'electric chairs' and so on.

I appreciate people's sentiments, and not just about other people they love, I'm bordering on 'John Wicks' where my dogs are concerned. That's exactly why I don't want or would support more victim involvement in sentencing, it's supposed to be a fair system, carried out objectively and that's what should be aimed for. Once done it can't be taken back, it has no deterrent impact.

On prison England and Wales have highest rate of prison sentences per head of population in the whole of Western Europe.

Actually there's a strong argument that the death penalty can make crime more severe. If penalties are severe more crimes can end in murder in order to get rid of witnesses.

Stupomax that's the bloke, thank you. I didn't know his prisons had since been shut. For me that system worked well. They did labour to earn the funds to cover their daily costs instead of everybody else funding it for them.

lowtide perhaps next time before you accuse someone of lying do a bit of research

The injustice of Who gets Death Penalty, the reality of how unevenly the penalty is levied, is too much for me to tolerate. It comes down to who has social power and can get great lawyers; not good enough. Read Bryan Stevenson's book. Story after story about death penalty applied to children, poor people, mentally ill, etc. There's no justice in it.