To think university snobbery must stop

[Staceystace]

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

If a DC wants to do something truly 'creative' then maybe they should be thinking about design engineering, pacer?

whole new industries we havn't even thought of yet

The same can apply in sciences ... I write scientific software, it's fairly niche TBF but the field didn't exist commercially when I was at school or even an undergrad. I've been employed by the same company for over 30 years now.

I suppose there can be similar phenomena on the Arts side once in a while... new media requiring lots of new content eg cinema. (But that was enabled and relies on technological innovation too)

So what engineering needs is top graduate candidates, which rather contradicts mths idea that engineering is a vocational choice rather than a university choice

Friends son just got into Cardiff uni to do engineering with ACE through clearing btw.

I know a young man who is doing a vocational degree at a former poly and he and some of his friends are already being spoken to by prospective employers about potential job opportunities. He is only halfway through his degree.

As to "the top 20", they can shove it up their backside. A certificate doesn't mean you are more intelligent, just probably more employable and have "connections".

Sigh. And then we get a half-witted post like the above. Every student at a top twenty university has "connections"? What are these connections, pray? I doubt whether someone studying Norse & Celtic or whatever it's called is necessarily more employable than someone doing Massage at Chichester, but I would wager that they are more intelligent in an academic way . And unless I'm fundamentally mistaken degrees are supposed to be about academic excellence.

So what engineering needs is top graduate candidates, which rather contradicts mths idea that engineering is a vocational choice rather than a university choice

No; engineering covers a huge spectrum. It needs top candidates (look at the entrance requirements for Cambridge and imperial) but it also needs people who can develop more practical skills (and some who can do both!).

math you've used the phrase 'Mickey Mouse' subjects/degrees several times on this thread. Would you care to define what you mean by this? Not by giving examples alone - by saying what the label itself means to you.

A certificate doesn't mean you are more intelligent

A certificate with a good grade from a respected course is proof of a certain level of intelligence/hard work. However, the lack of such a certificate certainly doesn't preclude having such attributes.

Agreed. We supply to areas of manufacturing that were just concepts when we started. Renewable energy is a prime example. How many wind turbines do you see these days?

We are a specialist area, but get to supply multi nationals, huge players in the industry but also tiny companies employing a few staff. Those that have adapted and been competitive have survived and grown. The products and expertise we supply are no where near what we started out doing.

Manufacturing isn't dead, it isn't anywhere close. But it has to adapt and change and be competitive too.

That being said, neither myself or DH are educated beyond 18, DH beyond 16. Some nouse, belief and a work ethic that no union would be happy about can reap rewards. If you define success as financial then particularly so. I'm not convinced a degree would have made a massive amount of difference. But it's a risk, and I think we are more risk averse these days, which is a shame in some respects. There are some brilliant folk out there beyond university walls.

There have been a few posts since I started writing, but I was referring to manufacturing.

Some nouse, belief and a work ethic...

Whatever a child's inherent academic ability, those are undoubtedly crucial attributes.
Well, there are some clever people who bumble through life without much nous, there may be some fields where it's not necessary. Maybe it's a pity there isn't an objective test for 'work ethic' which could be applied to uni applicants...

"and a work ethic that no union would be happy about can reap rewards."

Suggesting that unionised workers are some how slack? Right wing trope.

Ignore Math, every single education thread she comes on with her pronouncements and is massively biased BTW American undergraduate courses aren't great, even at the Ivy Leagues, so I'd stop your sniffing, and the United States has even lower social mobility than the UK, most Ivy League Colleges are the denizens of extremely privileged students. U

From my experience the old Polytechnics moved to being Universities because the number of technical qualifications that had moved to degree level, rather than HND/HNC had grown exponentially. They also had begun to offer a wider range of degrees in specialist subjects.

Getting an education should never be sniffed at,.

A lot of the criticsim of "getting in debt" shows a real lack of understanding of the student loan system and how it effects people's ability to borrow in the future.

Something like 25% of all occupations have degree level qualifications as a barrier to entry for occupation, but many more use it as an informal barrier to entry. So sending 1 in 3, it has never reached 40% of all teens, seems like it is appropriate.

Many degrees aren't about getting a specific set of skills for a job, but developing a range of transferable skills that can be used in many different types of employment.

So yes University snobbery should stop, its only used by people who don't know what they are talking about anyway, the Hyacinth Buckets of the world.

my daughter is going to an RG uni in the top five for her engineering subject and a few people have suggested she should have just done an engineering apprenticeship. I don’t think people understand the massive gulf in knowledge and earnings between a top design engineer with an MEng and an 18 year old doing an apprenticeship. Or maybe I’m missing something? We spent hours and hours pouring over choices and all the information led us to think that chartered status and an MEng was the best way to compete for the top jobs. I know she could do that the apprenticeship route, but she doesn’t want to work and study (and as someone who did an OU degree alongside work, I can kind of sympathise!)

I could actually get quite upset by the right wing comment, given Dh's father and grandfather were miners, so nothing could be further from the truth. I didn't suggest union members were slackers either, but simply meant that our business was built (and its growth still is) on 70 hour weeks and a level of risk and commitment that isn't for everyone. And no one would advocate that.

We don't ask our employees to work like this, and we treat them with dignity, respect and flexibility. Many have been with us from the start, pretty much.

So yeah, real stereotypical Tory values there.

You can get upset but its what you implied

I don’t think people understand the massive gulf in knowledge and earnings between a top design engineer with an MEng and an 18 year old doing an apprenticeship. Or maybe I’m missing something?

It's not you, it's them.

@topcat1980 Spot on.

Ah, you obviously know what I implied better than I do then, fair enough.

@Papaya -Wouldn't the 18yr old engineer have completed their apprenticeship and bagged their degree by about the same time the top engineer with an MEng has completed theirs? or are you not talking about degree apprenticeships here?

Wouldn't the 18yr old engineer have completed their apprenticeship and bagged their degree by about the same time the top engineer with an MEng has completed theirs?  or are you not talking about degree apprenticeships here?

Not for the same level of degree, I think. Masters is level 7,they seem to be 60 months

https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/?routes=Engineering-and-manufacturing&levelFrom=5&includeApprovedForDelivery=true

Not for the same level of degree, I think. Masters is level 7,they seem to be 60 months

Yes I know, a yr extra. No reason why you can't do a degree apprenticeship that leads to an MEng. By the time they both graduate i'd have thought the one who followed the degree apprenticeship route would be more sought after by employers. Not sure why Papaya thinks its a comparison between an MEng and an 18yr old apprentice.

I guess it depends who you talk to. Judging by the employment and salary statistics for her course and numerous conversations with industry people, she decided the MEng offered a better route in. For her.

I appreciate that studying full time at university is the best route. For her.
But suggesting an MEng graduate who studied fulltime will have better job prospects than someone who went the degree apprenticeship route with the same qualification is nonsense.

I didn't infer that from papayas first post. However, it may be the case that while a degree apprenticeship may be an excellent choice for specific fields, it's not necessarily going to open up quite the same set of options as may be available the other way.

As with all these things, horses for courses.

MEng via Uni or Apprenticeship is something I know about.
The (major) engineering company I work for offer degree apprenticeships - which includes Masters. We pay our apprentices about £17k and they have a day off per week to attend lectures but are required to attend evening lectures a few nights per week. It takes about 8 years to Masters however they get payrises with experience throughout. We take grads on at £27k. They are brought in with zero experience. In order to obtain charter ship there is a requirement to demonstrate competencies (project experience) The apprenticeship recruits are doing this throughout so gain chartership faster. So.... no student loans payment throughout their studies, faster to become chartered. It makes far more sense to do the apprenticeship if you lucky enough to be offered one. It's not easier than getting into a RG Uni though. We require 3 A Levels to include Physics and Maths (normally grade A/A/B occasionally A/B/B). The number of applicants has increased dramatically in the last 2 years