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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think university snobbery must stop

708 replies

Staceystace · 30/08/2018 19:22

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

OP posts:
onetimeposter · 01/09/2018 13:38

Audit it is highly unlikely that someone with a degree from Cambridge will have a shite application though isn't it?
Robust and stellar courses demand rigor and strong academic and applicable ability which will transfer directly onto job applications, in a way that some poly for instance the Uni of Bolton will not in a million years prepare people for.
I think people are assuming that without snobbiness the playing field would be the same. It wouldn't. You cannot compare poor a level resuts with excellent ones and by and large the university you go to is a demonstrator of this.

Plutonium · 01/09/2018 13:54

I think people are assuming that without snobbiness the playing field would be the same.

Then whoever implied that does not understand the definition of snobbiness. You don't need 'snobbiness' for anything. There's no need to look down on anyone. A stellar university speaks for itself. I don't think anyone here is thinking that a degree from University of Sainsbos is the same as a degree from UCL. People just enjoy any opportunity to put others down.

Its always a good idea to engage brain first, especially if you have offspring headed for an RG and know a friend who's dc isn't Hmm. What exactly was the friend hoping to achieve by her comment? DN is already on their way to university, its not like they're at early stages of shortlisting unis and asking for advice. The university was chosen based on ability not because the parents weren't aware there is better out there.

jewel1968 · 01/09/2018 14:18

How are parents and students meant to be able to judge the best university for them. Put aside for a minute the RG, Oxbridge, 1994 (only heard about this group recently) and universities that don't slot neatly into one of these subsets how can you really know what university will be a good match for your DC. A few of the DS's friends have chosen their university based on where their girlfriends were going. My DS chose his based on the subject he wants to study and what they offer. He is passionate about his subject and knows way more than me but he could be wrong in his choice. We shall see.

I haven't seen anything on this thread about the joy of learning and the whole focus seems to be future employment. I too have done loads of recruitment and interviewing in public sector and echo what others have said the university they studied at doesn't really enter it. I do think confidence plays a big part and you may be more confident if you go to a university deemed better than most given that society seems to communicate that to them.

onetimeposter · 01/09/2018 14:22

I will advise mine to do

  1. Oxbridge
  2. RG
  3. Look at the reviews for that course if it's an ex poly eg, if that uni is in the top 10 (pref 5) in the country
  4. The above unimportant if it is a vocation eg nursing or teaching-the accredited courses are very similar as they are controlled by the professional bodies eg NMC
Other than that I don't think it's worth going. Ratings of 'student satisfaction' are useless. The 'worse' universities claim to have a high 'TEF' score-this is to detract from the poor research output (and subsequent prestige)
pastaandpestoagain · 01/09/2018 14:31

I went to a Russell group university but about 25 hears ago somethings must have changed since then, we were marked out of 20 throughout the course, I received a mark of 17 out of 20 the highest mark that wasn't given a viva for a first. Changing standards are also going to confuse people. It is good to know there is a more standard approach nowadays.

pastaandpestoagain · 01/09/2018 14:35

I would share a lot of the views of onetimeposter although I would place more emphasis on the individual course rating, as the quality of course can vary, a high ranked university isn't a guarantee of a high ranked individual course. This is as much to have a good quality of learning as about any future jobs.

Gronky · 01/09/2018 14:53

I had to take a second degree at a former polytechnic for a career change after getting my first BSc at a red brick. I obtained a 2:2 the first time around and a first class at the second (confusing even as I type it). There was a definite difference in how generous the marking was and I saw marks of >80% for work done at the former polytechnic that I'm almost positive would have received 50-60% at the red brick (the fields were very similar, sadly not quite enough for my initial degree to be used to get the job I wanted).

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2018 15:11

The grade boundary for a first is 70%. For all English unis. Including Oxbridge.

Not sure that's actually correct but even if it is, 70% of what?Confused
^

^

onetimeposter · 01/09/2018 15:31

In most high end universities, you hypothetically mark out of 100. However since 100 means perfection, and there is no such thing in research, it is more a ceiling of 80. So anything above 70 is outstanding. Whereas at a weak uni you get marks of late 80, and 90s. Not comparable.
Also why the OU make 80 the boundary for a firsr.

JillCrewesmum · 01/09/2018 16:49

Just out of interest, how old are your dcs @onetimeposter?

DoctorDoctor · 01/09/2018 17:47

Not sure that's actually correct

It is, Errol. Out of interest, what makes you think you know different? I'm speaking from the experience of working at a number of universities and knowing plenty of people who work at others.

onetimeposter · 01/09/2018 17:53

Mid teens and 3.
Im an academic though

tobee · 01/09/2018 18:07

Yeah but it won't stop though. I think it's just the sort of thing parents sometimes do about their dc.

Had a friend who's dc and my dc both had the same first choice uni. Her dc got the grades and got in. My dc missed by a grade. Couldn't believe it when I next saw her and she went on endlessly about how brilliant in every way the uni was her dc got into even though she knew mine had missed out!!! ShockShockShockMy dc is very happy about where they ended up. Says more about the friend then anything else imo.

tobee · 01/09/2018 18:09

*whose not who's

Xenia · 01/09/2018 18:15

Depends what you want to do after. Eg in some jobs you will need AAB at A level in good A levels plus a good degree of 2/1 probably from a top 5 or 10 university to be considered. Others jobs like plenty of lower paid jobs in the public sector which may be don't really require a very high IQ to do it will not matter a jot.

The main thing is that teenagers make informed choices about it all.

People should also be considerate to others. I have not asked one person if their son got in this year in case he didn't. The one whose 2 got to Oxford who again I had not asked in case of "failure" of course let me know and I am very pleased for them.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2018 18:16

My understanding (which may well be wrong, and I think is course specific ) comes from current and recent Cambridge undergrads. I got the impression that in one case there were always exactly N firsts awarded for that subject, and in the other a 70% percentile is used ie the top 30% - which I'm not sure corresponds to a 'grade boundary'. Clearly every course doesn't simply apply a percentile else every course at every uni would yield 30% firsts.

bernardrivers.com/exam-analysis/

Justanothermile · 01/09/2018 18:16

Have a Google re Lancaster. Top 10 university in all three tables. Not RG. DS is going to study maths there at the end of the month and is over the moon.

DrMantisToboggan · 01/09/2018 18:17

Errol anything with a % sign is marked out of 100. HTH Smile

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2018 18:24

Errol anything with a % sign is marked out of 100. HTH

Er, yes, I know, not sure what your point is except I should have said 70th percentile ...

reallybadidea · 01/09/2018 18:29

Others jobs like plenty of lower paid jobs in the public sector which may be don't really require a very high IQ to do it will not matter a jot.

I love you Xenia, don't ever change.

user1471450935 · 01/09/2018 18:42

I fear to poster.
But 2 points student debt, isn't real debt, I wish posters won't keep repeating this, it does put of kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, if they aren't clued up.
You pay back 9% of our earnings once over £25000.
So if you earn you have a student debt of £10000, or £50000 or £1 million, and you earn £24000 for the next 30 years you have no debt.
But once over £25000 you pay 9% of your earnings, so someone on £10000 pays more then someone on £26000.
It's just really a graduate tax.
RG is a self appointed marketing group. Who I believe have to buy to be members. It's not the Premier division of Universities.

mathanxiety · 01/09/2018 19:19

BlaaBlaaBlaa, you don't address the snobbery by turning polys into universities - when you attempt to give polys the cachet of universities by calling them universities, what you are doing is admitting that polys are not 'as good as' universities, Nd that a technical education or training are not as desirable as an academic education. In terms of public perception, the approach denigrated technical education and the technical route to mastery, and to employment.

In Ireland, the opposite was done - the Regional Techs were unabashedly technical colleges distinct from universities and they remain so. There was never a suggestion that they were 'as good as' universities (which would have implied that the universities were some sort of benchmark against which alternatives were to be measured).

The three ITs that are set to merge into a technical university will have more of a research role than the Institutes of Technology that they are now, in tech fields.

Along with the development of Irish technical education there has been a huge push to keep students in secondary education until 18, with steady increases in numbers doing the Leaving Cert, which has a broad curriculum with core subjects (maths, English, and Irish) that can't be dropped except in special circumstances. Subjects can be taken at two levels, three in the case of Irish and maths.
www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=sb

www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-03-26/debate-builds-over-mounting-student-loan-debt-in-the-uk
It's arguable that too many English students go to college, and some would be better off in vocational-education or apprenticeship programs. But, Barr says, further education, as opposed to higher education, gets little government attention and is poorly funded, which is a mistake. "Ours is a system that says without higher education you are a failure – that's a hangover from our class-based culture."

yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/23/one-three-recent-graduates-dont-feel-cost-universi/
One third of recent UK graduates regret taking out loans. Many are now in jobs where a degree is not actually needed, making it more difficult for those without a university education to get those jobs, and many have no hope of ever paying off their loans. The government will eventually write off 45% of money loaned to students. That is to say, the taxpayers will see no return at all for their money. Because of the backhanded way the money is allocated, the unpaid debt will eventually be added to government debt. (See the US News article for this point).
When it comes to the costs of a degree, YouGov's research also finds that there is significant pessimism among both recent graduates and current students with loans about whether they will ever be free of the burden of repayments during their working life. When asked how long they expected it would take to pay off their student loan, 41% of both recent graduates and current students say they don’t think they ever will.

Few think repayments will be relatively quick, with only 10% of recent graduates and just 5% of current students expecting to have their loans paid off within a decade of leaving university. Far more are preparing for the long-haul, with 17% of recent graduates and 13% of current students believing it will take 11-20 years to pay off their student loan, while 13% of recent graduates and 10% of current students thinking it will take 21-30 years to complete their repayments...

...However, among recent graduates, these estimates may be based upon false expectations about how much they will end up having to pay back. More than four in ten (41%) say that they don’t understand how the interest rate on student loans works, compared to 25% who do.

If they are not put off, then they should be.

Maybe I should have clarified that those with any degree of financial literacy are put off by the ramifications of the loan system.

LoniceraJaponica · 01/09/2018 19:46

"Have a Google re Lancaster. Top 10 university in all three tables. Not RG. DS is going to study maths there at the end of the month and is over the moon."

We should have been at the open day there today, but DD wasn't well. She already has her A levels and really likes the sound of Lancaster.

There are several non RG universities that are more highly regarded than some RG universities:

St Andrews
Loughborough
Lancaster
Bath
UEA
Surrey

user1471450935 · 01/09/2018 19:48

Also apprenticeships are bloody hard to get.
Ds of to a 2nd tier university, applied to both 6th form and apprenticeships. In good quality apprenticeships you have to pass NVR and NR tests, pass an interview, in some cases get higher GCSE's to attend then 6th/FE college. Pass both, and then beat your competitors.
Ds applied to engineering, there was 25 applicants to every place.
He got a job, but wasn't in the area he wanted. Even then if he had trained for 3 years, the companies often realise you and take on another apprentice.
As for higher apprenticeships, I believe BP, Siemens, Rolls Royce and British Aerospace and Jaguar/Land Rover can have over a 1000 applicants per place.
Also things like nursing, police and even prison service are now requiring degrees or soon will be.
Final point, Ds looked at 3 Rg and some of the lowest ranking universities. Off to a top 50 one mention above, for having university of , on a hated unconditional offer. Got CCCD, predicted CCC, one learnt in 12 months.
But he has had 2 of the RG and the likes of Surrey and others emailing offer him law and History through clearing. Even though he isn't going to study either. He discounted all of them because their standard offer is AAA or AAB.
For his course is University was close to clearing, but open to adjustment.
Can anyone explain what that means please, he's first in family to go, we know what clearing is, but what's adjustment? and is it a bad sign. All the others he applied to and considered where open to clearing.

mathanxiety · 01/09/2018 19:54

Adjustment is a process for when your results are better than predicted.

www.ucas.com/ucas/undergraduate/apply-and-track/results/ucas-adjustment-if-youve-done-better-expected