Why does my daughter have to have butterfly or heart zipper pulls on her school uniform?

[MsMotherOfDragons]

Just that, really.

Why do the school uniform options for girls not have things like rocket or dinosaur charms? And why don't they have pockets?!! It drives me wild.

I've looked at several of the main supermarkets and they all seem to have the same problem. Eventually I went for the Sainsbury's ones on the basis of price and quality, so we're stuck with butterflies on everything.

Can I replace them with something else... does anyone know where to get rocket charms or similar? Can anyone recommend a better supplier? I'm kind of appalled that all the gender nonsense starts so early. It's so unnecessary.

ShadyLady

With respect, I think you are being a bit obtuse. Of course girls can achieve despite these messages. You say you're looking at the bigger picture, but then you give a one-person example; of course one individual is not going to look at one t-shirt with one image and think "this t shirt tells me who I am and what I can do." It's a much wider, more subtle problem. Similarly, you say you can't see how a dinosaur = leadership. But again, you've reduced it to one unlikely example. On a wider scale, all the images of power, strength etc that go into boys' marketing will have an effect. And I'm pretty sure a dinosaur is a powerful image!

You say we have to develop critical thinking skills. Of course! But you seem to be suggesting that it's therefore fine for society to reinforce all these unhelpful messages so that young people have something to practice their critical thinking skills on! That's a bit like saying we should deliberately make life mors unfair so that those who suffer can get better at problem-solving...

As for the pp who blithely commented that girls and boys are 'programmed differently' and seemed happy that that was factually correct! You sure about that?

*practise

Do you have boys and girls, Peg? It’s amazing to see how very different they actually are, with no intervention to make it so.

@anxiouspeg comments like that frustrate me. We are born with different anatomy. Different hormonal changes, all which influence our behaviour and personality.
Nature vs nurture. They both have a valid part in our child’s upbringing.

Would it make a difference if I had girls and boys? Presumably you are judging on a tiny sample - your own children - as I would be. Statistically meaningless.

And if I had boys (which I don't) they'd be subject to the same media/societal influences that we're discussing. Even tiny children pick up on all this. I don't imagine my girls just suddenly started liking Disney princesses completely independently...

If you take a look at Let Clothes Be Clothes on Facebook you will find lots about this

“But you seem to be suggesting that it's therefore fine for society to reinforce all these unhelpful messages so that young people have something to practice their critical thinking skills on!”

I’m not sure where I intimated that but that’s not what I think at all. I actually am not seeing “unhelpful” messages in clothing at all. I don’t view flowers, hearts, dinosaurs as sending a message. That’s the difference, I think. Disney Princesses on the other hand I can absolutely see as promoting often unhealthy ideas. But the particular examples given in the posts here, I do not see as unhelpful or problematic. Just like a don’t see a dinosaur as powerful! I see dinosaurs as something which is now extinct...if I pushed it I could say “T-rexes are aggressive. The herbivores of the dinosaur world were gentle and sweet” but I am clearly being anthropomorphic there.
I also don’t see any success I had as being in spite of what I wore. I just didn’t feel like I was receiving any messages from my clothing! I wore clothes or had a pink pencil case because I liked them and chose them. It had no effect at all on my mindset or whether or not I felt I could study STEM subjects for example.

I also think it’s unfair to label someone as obtuse for having a differing opinion. I am allowed to see things differently and state that as much as anyone who differs from my viewpoints. We should be able to do that without resorting to labelling one another.

Now I’m off out for the day so forgive me if I don’t reply!

LostinLondon

Of course boys and girls are biologically different!

But what part of a boy's anatomy is logically aligned to tractors and astronauts? And what is it about having a vagina that means you have to like flowers?

I am actually not seeing unhelpful messages in clothing at all

Ok. So there's the point at which we're never going to agree.

You see, to me, it's screamingly obvious. You don't have to lool far to see that the overwhelming tendency in girls' clothing (and other merchandise) is towards prettiness, sweetness, passivity and the overwhelming tendency in boys' stuff is towards machines, power, noise, strength.

It blows my mind that you can't see this.

Fair enough if you disagree with the idea that it's damaging; that's a difference of opinion. But to disagree that the phenomenon exists at all seems bizarre!

Some people think it's fine to guide girls and boys into these highly gendered categories. I disagree.

My younger kids are boys who wouldn’t be seen dead in any of her obviously girly castoffs, without any influencing whatsoever from me, so... Maybe it can be inate?

It is proven with research not to be inate. Has your son ever left your house? If so, he will have been subtley but constantly influenced by shop marketing displays, friends, nursery workers, teachers, relatives, friends' parents etc.

Even if he has never left the house, he will have been influenced by children's tv, and very likely by you, as we are so gender stereotyped towards children in this country, even parents who are desperate to avoid passing it on will slip up sometimes.

@anxiouspeg they are not. My point being is that many parents are expressing that their children like both, which you are disregarding. It is what you expose your children too. If you believe your girls were forced into liking princesses then I suggest you turn off the Disney channel.
My boy has 2 sisters, he runs around in tutus all day.

I agree this issue exists but I don’t see it as damaging or as an issue.
What is an issue is when parents reinforce the idea that girls can only do girls things and vice versa.

their children like both, which you are disregarding

No. I have not disregarded this! Where on earth have you found this?

You're being quite unpleasant now. I have not forced my girls into liking Disney princesses. I, however, do not keep them locked in the house, away from all social and cultural influences

So it's only am issue if parents reinforce limiting gender stereotypes? If society constantly reinforces the exact same messages, it's all fine?

@anxiouspeg there are a few examples above and I have also told you my girls and boys enjoying playing with a variety of toys. Girls like trains, cars etc and my boy loves dressing up.
Apart from clothing which once again many have told you that shops are catering for this. What other influences worry you?

We are society!

Are gender specific toilets an issue?

For those saying that they don’t notice gender stereotypes.

Have you ever heard someone dismiss rough and nasty play as “girls will be girls”?

Or a wee boy crying being told he sounds like a big strong man?

Or a wee girl with short hair wearing boys clothes that she looks beautiful?

They’re all around us. Whether we choose to see them or not is a different matter.

Ok lost I think you're getting muddled. Of course many children like both 'sorts' of toys! I'm not denying that! I'm denying that I've denied it !

Yes, we are society. So we should all challenge gender stereotypes. They're not ok in marketing and they're not ok at home.

We don't have gender specific toilets, we have sex specific ones--Male and female. That's sex not gender.

And long may it stay that way, Intents

🙈 some people need to get a life. Seriously take them off!!

Asda for a plain circle on one of their pinafores and if has pockets

I think it's worth writing a quick email to companies when they do it right to know that it means that consumers are buying for that reason (so Asda with the circle zip pull and pockets).

anxiouspeg I'm not concerned , never said I was. I think you're talking absolute bollarks though and labouring your perceived point til it's absolutely wrung out of any clarity or sense.