Do we owe Mil this money

[Whatjusthappenedthere]

This is not a Mil bashing thread as we get along fine, any difficulties in our relationship I am sure are mutual 😂.

Two years ago we decided to give up one of our cars. It was the one on finance and was hardly being used ( less than 4000 miles a year) DHs commute is quite short and very doable on his bike.
I need the main car for work and the children so it did mean he would be without a car most days but as we live in a town it was fine.
Mil didn’t like the idea at all. She likes to rely on DH for days out and some weekly errands. These are not essential needs as Fil has a car ( but works), she is not elderly or infirm and like us she lives on a really good bus route into the town centre. However, DH has a reasonable amount of time on his hands and doesn’t mind these requests for transport. He loves his Mum and is happy to help. They frequently go shopping together or have the odd lunch out.
So, seeing this potential “life line” about to be cut off Mil wanted to buy DH a car. She said it was because she worried about him commuting on his bike but we all knew the real reason (his brother has commuted on a bike for years and there was never any offer to buy him a car iyswim).
We declined the offer at first but she persisted and so DH found a little run around on line and Mil bought it for him. For the last two years it’s been used to take Mil on her trips and for DHs commute in wet weather and pretty much nothing else. Everyone happy as it seemed to be an arrangement that suited both sides.
Another recent change of circumstances means we really do not need this car anymore. ( to say what it is will be outing). DH can have my car to run Mil around anytime she likes so we have sold the car she bought and put the money towards a project we have been taking about for years. We have stretched ourselves a bit but honestly we just had a “life is too short / kids soon going to be too grown up to enjoy this new adventure with us. So we went for it a few years early than planned.
In the time we had the “run around” we taxed/insured/mot’d/serviced/changed tyres and fix a few niggles. All of which cost more than the original purchase price but hey ho.
Now the car has gone it’s becoming obvious Mil feels she should be given the money we received for it. It’s like the elephant in the room ever since we sold it. Comments have been made but no direct request for the actual money but it’s making me feel very uncomfortable.
I’ve suggested that DH just brings up the costs involved in running a car for two years that Mil has benefitted from. He says just leave it unless a direct request for the money is made. In the mean time I just hate the feeling this is being discussed with wider family members and we are being made out to look like CF’s.

So are we being unreasonable not giving this money to Mil. She’s had two years of free transport more or less on demand and will continue to do so for foreseeable future.
Final note, Mil is financially comfortable and not reliant on this money.

She expected 10 years use from a 15 year old banger? That sounds optimistic!

I’d give her the €400 and say you don’t want to hear any more about it.

It's no good pps talking about 'legally....' and the cost of petrol. This is family and close family at that. People do things for each other because it makes them happy to help out. Turning it into a financial transaction does huge harm to a relationship.

When MIL bought the car she thought she was doing a nice thing for her son. When he took her shopping, he thought he was doing a nice thing for his mum. And both would have been v hurt to think that the other was doing it for selfish reasons or out of duty.

But it's tricky when someone is seriously out of pocket. She almost certainly won't appreciate how much it costs to keep a car on the road. But won't some of the cost of running the car she paid for have been cancelled out by the money you saved on not paying for finance on the car DH gave up? Previously, you were paying both to buy the car and its upkeep. In her eyes, she's saved you money as well as making life easier for DH.

You mention 'wider family'. Is there anyone who now feels hard done by because MIL justified spending money on DH because it benefited her as well. But now it looks as if she's given your family the chance of nicer holidays, but she hasn't done the equivalent for them? She bought something which was needed, but now it's been used for a luxury?

You only have to read these boards to see how difficult it is to be evenhanded between grown up dcs. People do keep tabs, however petty it seems. If you'd given back the money, is there someone else she'd like to help out?

Yes, your DH needs to address it as it's obviously caused a problem. But do it by talking. Don't give her a spread-sheet or mention the cost of petrol. Perhaps focus on how the money from the sale of the car she gave you has been crucial in the van purchase and how grateful you are. Her gift still counts, it hasn't been discarded. That might give her some idea of the financial difficulty you'd be in if you had to pay it back. But if there's someone else whose nose has been put out of joint, I don't know how you'll address that.

The running costs of the car are something they took on by accepting the car, tho. It's no good resenting paying out for it after the fact. They accepted the car. I don't see the running costs as relevant, especially when the car wasn't solely used to ferry mil around. If it was such a terrible burden, it shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.

£400 isn't a huge amount of money compared to the outlay for a camper, so struggling to see why it's an issue just to offer the mil the cash, since her nose is out of joint about it. For the sake of amicable relations. She'll likely refuse it anyway.

She expected 10 years use from a 15 year old banger? That sounds optimistic!

Psml at that one too!

Honestly some people on here are crazy 😂

It was a £500 banger, not a flipping Tesla Model X. The MIL got a lot of value out of that 500 - time, lifts, etc. Plus it was bought at her insistence - the OP and her Dh didn't even want the damn thing!! She's the CF not the OP.

You don't owe her anything. She bought that car primarily for her own benefit and it then cost you money. It's not like you sold it and blew the money on a weekend smoking dope in Amsterdam; she can still have her lifts but in a vehicle which is more suited to your purposes.

I like how Twillow has worded it, if you do end up saying something.

It's not your discussion to have. Leave it to your DH. As soon as you take on a car it's a money losing exercise

Just offer her the money. Life is too short.

I would have offered her the money.

When you told her you were selling the car and not to worry as lifts could continue etc she probably wasn’t upset as it still worked ok and she assumed car money would come back to her

So a shock to her to hear that wasn’t the case and you were keeping the cash. She is a bit out and having a bitch about you- I can see where she is coming from

You should have explained how much thyou upkeep of car had cost over the years and maybe offered to return half the cash?

Now she thinks you are Cf and sorry to say even if you explain now it won’t take that away.
If you now offer her the cash it is like you are admitting you have been CFs!

So to me best option is to say you are aware what she thinks, these are reasons why you didn’t give her the cash initially (ie net cost still to you) but you dislike being thought badly of so here is the money.

I wouldn't give her any money.

What it boils down to is MIL gave them a £500 car because she wanted DH to keep giving her lifts. She pushed this arrangement on them so obviously thought it was a good deal and was happy to pay the £500.

OP and her DH traded the car up and will still continue to give her lifts for the foreseeable future.

She hasn’t lost out on anything at all.

But some PPs think OP and her DH should be down over £1400 for the privilege of ferrying MIL around.

How many people saying that would expect their children to spend over £1400 to drive them around when their own partner drives and they’re more than capable of getting the bus? I’d wager it’s precisely 0.

Ignore the PPs OP. Your MIL is still getting exactly what she paid for!

If the running costs were an issue, they should have asked for help towards petrol/repair etc all along. It's no good retrospectively resenting it and using it to justify not offering the mil the money.

I think it was a gift and she shouldn't want the money, but if she does, it's silly to fall out about.

I could understand her wanting the money if they’d sold it and spent it on a night out/holiday/new kitchen, but they traded the car up so she’ll still be getting lifts which is what she paid for.

If she asks for the money I’d say we’ll have to sell the other car to pay for it and OP will have use the van for commuting so unfortunately she won’t be able to get lifts anymore.

Massively selfish to think other people should pay for the privilege of ferry you around!

Imagine if mil had bought you a £500 washing machine and you occasionally did some laundry for her. But then you decided you really needed a washer-dryer so would sell MIL's 'gift' and use the money to put towards the washer-dryer. You'd still carry on doing the occasional bit of laundry for her.

Should you give mil whatever you got for selling the original washing machine - ie her gift?

Surely not? So why would a car be any different?

tinstar yes^this^

I’d explain how much you all wanted the camper van and had been making savings wherever you could to enable you to buy it. One saving was the running costs of a car you didn't really need.

The issue here is that you don't seem
To have discussed it with mil that you were going to sell the car.
If you had then you would be aware of her expectations and you could have discussed the running costs.
Although it was brought really to satisfy her your husband will
Have also benefitted from it.... No
Bike rides on a cold winters morning. You need to have that conversation now. It is rather unreasonable that you sold without telling her, even if you consider it as a gift you know it was brought mainly to benefit her.

Honestly, we have avoided offering the money because we know she will take it. We acted on impulse without time to think. We have had 4 great trips away in it already which for me is fantastic . For perspective, I’ve been on just three ( cheap) foreign holidays in my life ( in 2017 1997 and before that 1987) never really had the opertunity or the money. We didn’t have a honeymoon.i appreciate this is more than a lot of people so it’s not a whine or a poor me type comment. We really do have a rather simple but happy existence. This camper will be a life changer but honestly we probably should have waited and saved a bit more. We just not getting any younger and my children are growing up fast! In fact DH has 2 grandchildren we hope will come
away in it when they are old enough.
Not sure if any of this is relivent but it’s just a bit of back ground. Im not grabby but since this I probably feel I’ve crossed my own moral line and was looking for support not give her the money. We really needed the money to insure the van so it wasn’t sitting on the drive for the rest of the summer, but I can see that was probably a mistake. It was just such an amazing feeling to have the campervsn right at our finger tips.
I’ll Admit I will feel very resentful giving the money to Mil as 400 pounds is not a great deal to her. It’s a lot more to us at the moment but I see that’s my fault. I pushed for the camper early.

It’s probably better feeling a bit resentful than feeling like a CF in the long run. Thanks for your posts. X

You sold your MILs car without telling her and you're asking if you owe her? And you think it might be reasonable to invoice her for her son's time and effort driving her around for two years in said car because you want to keep the money? How could that possibly be unreasonable?

If I were your MIL I’d have expected you to offer me the money you got for the car, and I then would have generously said no, put it towards your project. Win win.

Offer her the money, and be done with it.
How much did you save by getting rid of the original car on finance? I’m guessing several thousand over the 2 years, plus your DH still got to use the ‘gift’ car in bad weather to get to work, when he couldn’t cycle or just to runaround.
Yes you had the running costs, but at less than £1/day for the past 2 years not exactly onerous.

I was hoping to get talked out of feeling like a CF but despite all the reasons in the world not to give her the money it seems we should.
Hang on. A lot of people are saying they would offer her the money, but I suspect they mean that sort of offer where, if your mil is gauche enough to accept, you will never actually pay up. A few people have specified that she should, of course, refuse it.
You don't really need to get involved in that kind of behaviour. It's easy to say "I would offer" over the internet, but you and your husband are the ones who would have to either pay up or be lying jerks if she accepted. It seems both more honourable and more intelligent to talk to her about it without offering money you're reluctant to give.

Yes - you didn't answer the question about how much you saved on finance on the original car, which you said you were selling because you couldn't afford the instalments.

If you now say that you sold the gift car because of running costs, there's a good chance that you'll be spending more on a second-hand camper van, even if you enjoy it for holidays.

Does MIL think you're being extravagant?

I'm afraid i also think you should give her the money or offer it at least.

The 1k you've spent on the car in two years is fair enough since you used it personally fifty percent of the time.

I'm not sure why but selling it and pocketing the cash without offering does indeed feel very cheeky fuckerish