Do we owe Mil this money

[Whatjusthappenedthere]

This is not a Mil bashing thread as we get along fine, any difficulties in our relationship I am sure are mutual 😂.

Two years ago we decided to give up one of our cars. It was the one on finance and was hardly being used ( less than 4000 miles a year) DHs commute is quite short and very doable on his bike.
I need the main car for work and the children so it did mean he would be without a car most days but as we live in a town it was fine.
Mil didn’t like the idea at all. She likes to rely on DH for days out and some weekly errands. These are not essential needs as Fil has a car ( but works), she is not elderly or infirm and like us she lives on a really good bus route into the town centre. However, DH has a reasonable amount of time on his hands and doesn’t mind these requests for transport. He loves his Mum and is happy to help. They frequently go shopping together or have the odd lunch out.
So, seeing this potential “life line” about to be cut off Mil wanted to buy DH a car. She said it was because she worried about him commuting on his bike but we all knew the real reason (his brother has commuted on a bike for years and there was never any offer to buy him a car iyswim).
We declined the offer at first but she persisted and so DH found a little run around on line and Mil bought it for him. For the last two years it’s been used to take Mil on her trips and for DHs commute in wet weather and pretty much nothing else. Everyone happy as it seemed to be an arrangement that suited both sides.
Another recent change of circumstances means we really do not need this car anymore. ( to say what it is will be outing). DH can have my car to run Mil around anytime she likes so we have sold the car she bought and put the money towards a project we have been taking about for years. We have stretched ourselves a bit but honestly we just had a “life is too short / kids soon going to be too grown up to enjoy this new adventure with us. So we went for it a few years early than planned.
In the time we had the “run around” we taxed/insured/mot’d/serviced/changed tyres and fix a few niggles. All of which cost more than the original purchase price but hey ho.
Now the car has gone it’s becoming obvious Mil feels she should be given the money we received for it. It’s like the elephant in the room ever since we sold it. Comments have been made but no direct request for the actual money but it’s making me feel very uncomfortable.
I’ve suggested that DH just brings up the costs involved in running a car for two years that Mil has benefitted from. He says just leave it unless a direct request for the money is made. In the mean time I just hate the feeling this is being discussed with wider family members and we are being made out to look like CF’s.

So are we being unreasonable not giving this money to Mil. She’s had two years of free transport more or less on demand and will continue to do so for foreseeable future.
Final note, Mil is financially comfortable and not reliant on this money.

When someone gifts you something, they cease to own the thing they gifted to you. You are responsible for the costs of upkeep/running costs in the case of the car. But if you sell it, you keep the proceeds.

If someone lends you a car, they still own it but depending on the agreement you may or may not be responsible for running costs. But you can't sell it without their permission and you couldn't keep the proceeds.

As your MIL gifted the car (by the sound of it this was for her own benefit too), she no longer has a say in what happens to it.

If you want to settle it, you could either ask her if she wants the money or work out what the repairs etc cost and deducted those from what you got from the sale of the car, give her the remainder.

The car turned out to be a gift with strings rather than ribbons. I think you need to leave this to your DH to have the conversation with his mother but, if you’ve made it quite plain that you/he will continue to drive her about, she’s no worse off than before.

I’ve done the rough maths. Car cost 500 pounds. Not including petrol ( churlish) it has cost us just over 1000 pounds to keep it on the road. Mil use / DH use probably 50/50 give or take

You've spent £1000
She spent £500
Usage 50/50

If you keep the £400 then overall it'll have cost you £1000-£400 so £600.
MIL will be down £500.

YANBU.

log book doesnt mean ownership i just bougt a car it states it across the top

however you maintained the car for her benefcit not your own so id say no u dont owe her

I would have mentioned it before selling it and offered money, but made sure she was aware of running costs and upkeep.
Dear mil, we need to save for this awesome camper van, your taxi car you very kindly gave us is costing us xxx per month and xxx since we've had it, you will still have lifts as usual and then offer her the sale money, she would have refused it, and everyone feels good

I have nothing to add except to say we also bought a campervan after a life changing event, for similar reasons to the ones you have described, and we used money for the deposit which we really ought to have used for far more boring sensible things, we also have a large 5 year loan which has stretched us financially...
And we don't regret a thing Its ace, the kids love it, we've had some great holidays and weekends away in it, DH also uses it as his second vehicle, it represents freedom and family times.
I hope you resolve your issues with MIL and please don't let it spoil your enjoyment of your van

That's not a lot of money for a car, I don't think the issue is money. (If the price was 10 times of that amount, then I'd say give her the money.) I think you should have had her opinion at least before selling the car as a courtesy and there wouldn't be any problems now.

DH knows his mother better than you and he's said to leave it unless she mentions it. Listen to him!

You are imagining that other people might be talking about you and might conclude that you are a CF. Stop it!

BIL knows exactly why the car was given in the first place, he knows why he wasn't given one too. Other people know it costs to run a car.

If, and it is a big if, family are sitting around talking about this, there is a bloody good chance everyone is pointing out to MIL how much it must have cost you to run the car and how many hours of time DH gave up to run her around. They may well be pointing out that you and DH are not the CF types. If they are talking about it at all.

Thanks ontopofspagetti. Good to know we are not the only ones .

I do understand that given the chance we would have been better talking to Mil before buying the van and thus forcing the sale of the car a few weeks later. It all happened so quickly and they were away at the time.

DH told them about the van when he picked them up from the airport that’s 2 and a half hours away from where we live. The same airport that has a direct train link to our town station from its terminal. .

I don't understand why so many posters seem to think the car was sold without forewarning MIL. OP has repeatedly stated they told her almost a month beforehand that the car would be sold. MIL continues to get lifts even though the car has now been sold. A gift is a gift or else it should have been clearer that it was MIL's car in which case she should have been paying running costs. Why is this such a huge issue?

I agree with all the posters saying to present a balance sheet - money spent by her, costs incurred by you, sale price - 50/50 benefit and 5050 split and the end result is ... excluding fuel she still owes you money.

Give her the money. It isn't worth the grief.

I guess you could tell a little (whopping) white lie, and say the car was starting to cost too much to keep on the road so you bought a camper van?

All this chat is irrelevant really as your DH has said that you can't discuss it with her!

I agree with all the posters saying to present a balance sheet - money spent by her, costs incurred by you, sale price - 50/50 benefit and 5050 split and the end result is ... excluding fuel she still owes you money

^ also this

So don’t discuss it with her...write her an old-fashioned letter (and take a pic of it on your phone before handing it over). Your DH is being unreasonable dictating whether you can address a family problem.

Paragraph one: I sense some ill feeling and ‘comments’ in the family around the sale of the car. Wondering if some maths would help. Assumed this was obvious but now thinking we’ve been remiss in not communicating more clearly.

Paragraph two: car purchase price minus (list of expenses) = negative €xxx

Paragraph three: list of liabilities for your family relating to keeping that car (why you sold it). Security, storage, depreciation, insurance, costs per month, etc.

Paragraph four: perhaps this has taught us how important it is to discuss these kinds of gifts before they are purchased, in the future. So it can be clarified who owns it and therefore pays costs?

Frankly, I’d go further and buy her a €500 runaround and park it with full paperwork in her name, on her driveway. Like for like, right? Let’s see how she enjoys car ownership, and the faff of selling it. But I’m one to stamp out this kind of MIL nonsense when it first rears its head. It was never a gift, and I would never have accepted it. It could only lead to trouble.

I don't think this is about money.

It seems that your DH and his mum have a close loving relationship and enjoy seeing each other, so it's really not fair to describe the lifts as all for her benefit or a taxi service. I assume that there has been mutual benefit in being able to go shopping together, to lunch etc. You make it sound as though she is a burden and DH sees her out of obligation, but I am not getting the impression that DH sees it in the same way. The car wasn't a lifeline, as her husband has a car, but a source of joy, a means of seeing her son and spending time with him.

When a decision was made to sell the car, she was worried that this signified the end of her precious time with her son. If she is not a driver herself, she is probably blissfully unaware of the day to day running costs of a car. She thought that she had bought the car as a means of being able to continue seeing her son so, now the car has gone, she is worried that she won't see him so often. In rejecting the car, she feels that her son is rejecting her.

I think there needs to be a conversation and some reassurance here. It would be nice to offer her the money - and it's not worth falling out over £400 - but I don't think that money is at the root of this.

@Skittles - that's not very kind is it?

"MIL, we really don't need the car and the associated running costs, so we're going to sell it and focus our money on project X, would you like the proceeds seeing as you bought the car? Obviously DH will still give you lifts he'll just use my car."

Is entirely different to

"MIL we don't need the car so we're selling it."

I suspect her response to the first would have been "don't be silly you keep it and put it towards project X!"

I think it's the fact you told her you were selling the car but then just assumed you could keep the proceeds that's gotten her heckles up and puts you in CF territory I'm afraid

On reflection I think you could have gone about this a lot better; had you all sat down with her beforehand and discussed the sale of the car you would not be having this problem.

The fact is you and your husband did benefit from the car as he used it as a run around but more importantly for commuting to work, not to mention keeping miles off your much newer and nicer car. I imagine he used it more for those purposes more than the occasional journey to take her out.

You may have not needed the car, but you accepted it nontheless so it must have been of some benefit, and you would have had to pay out money to run a second car inrespective of whether it was bought by her or yourselves, so that is a moot point really, especially since it's more likely that the car was predominantly used for your benefit rather than hers.

Common deceny would dictate that you should have at least consulted her and got her blessing for selling the car and how the money was to be used. All this over four hundred pounds too.... Whether you're right or wrong, I'd just give her the money anyway.

People are far more important than money. I lost my own mum years ago. I'd pay all the money in the world and some more if I had it to get her back.

Hi MIL,

We've heard talk that you feel there might be some unfairness regarding the sale of the car. Please do not worry for one moment! Here are some figures to set your mind at ease:

$500 original cost
$1,000 upkeep we had not planned on spending, but were happy to given that it was so convenient for you to have DH available.

Total cost to all: $1,500. Proceeds from sale: $400.

Net cost to all: $1,100 or $550 each. Less your original investment of $500 is $50 due from you to us. However, please do not worry -- we would not DREAM of nickle-and-diming a family member thus. Set it aside for a special treat for yourself, with our regards. Happy to help!

As we were unable to save those funds toward our new family campervan, in order to have the car available and in good repair for your convenience -- DH was so fortunate to pick up a side job to accelerate our income.

Therefore, unfortunatelyy, he will be unable to drive you to the shops and so forth until the campervan loan is paid off. For the days when FIL is unavailable, we have printed out this list of bus and taxi contacts.

Thanks again for your thoughtfulness --
Your loving Son and Daughter-in Law.

You owe her nothing as it was a gift. I’m really surprised that some people think otherwise.

If she'd never given you the car, you would have saved up a lot quicker for your campervan.

Jamieson. You will see I’m my updates I agree that discussing the sale of the car before buying the campervsn would have been ideal but Mil was away. I wasn’t going to miss out buying this particular van because Mil wasn’t around to have the talk. When she came home it was talked about then, three weeks before we actually sold it.

The car never ever saved any mileage on my car as even if it was available to me I wouldn’t drive it. It was over 15 years old and never went further than a few miles into town or to work. These were miles that would never have been done at all or would have been covered on a bike. But thank you for your contribution.
I do understand a lot of your opinions that’s she probably just worried or hurt but honestly she has no reason as her relashionship with DH is rock solid. She’s not a mean woman hence the gift in the first place but in this case I do believe it simply comes down to the money and nothing else. She won’t fall out with us as my husbands family are simple not like that. No feuds but I’m a relive new comer and I feel like a CF. I was hoping to get talked out of feeling like a CF but despite all the reasons in the world not to give her the money it seems we should.

In all honesty, despite all the guilt-tripping on here, I think that you do not owe her the money.

However - she obviously feels that she is owed something, so how about a compromise - offer her HALF what you got for it.
I know you've already spent the money but if you offer her half (£200) then she feels like she's getting something back, you feel less hard done-by in terms of having to give her anything (which I agree you shouldn't have to) and hopefully peace will be restored.