Rise of measles

[crosstalk]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/european-measles-death-toll-hits-37-after-antivax-campaigns-ztmwl9f3q

Just saying

@Cathmidston

You see, that article was published in 2015 before the rise in the number of measles cases.

This is what we have been saying - because of herd immunity the number of cases has been low, allowing anti vaxxers the luxury of declining vaccines relatively safe in the knowledge that the risk of catching measles is low.

As less and less are vaccinated herd immunity decreases and measles is now more prevalent, leading to this outbreak.

For those on here that haven't taken up MMR for their children - have you also refused DTP, whooping cough, meningitis vaccines too?

There is no point arguing with anti-vaxers, they will never listen to reason.

The only thing that will have more impact on vaccinations rates is bringing in laws such as compulsory vaccinations for state school attendance or limiting certain family benefits/giving extra tax relief (with exemptions for proof of medical reason for non vaccination).

Some states in the US such as California have strict laws that require proof of vaccination for school attendance (all states have a similar mandate but most allow exemptions due to personal beliefs).
The Australian government brought in a “no jab no pay”’policy a few years ago and vaccination rates have risen.

@ForgivenessisDivine Can you not see this thread is about anger and hysteria - please don’t let common sense or facts detract from that.

My family are vaccinated before anyone sees fit to pounce but the hysteria on here is amusing me all the same. The media can’t half whip up a frenzy! A bit like the one stirred up by Wakefield....

The problem with withholding benefits or discriminating against children who haven’t been vaccinated is the government would then need to take responsibility for the complications arising from vaccinations. It’s not in their interests to do so as it would be costly.

Mairy, my girls might decide never to have children.

I never wanted children and now I'm past the menopause people are starting to believe me.

I have had rubella vaccine - in the days it was only given to girls.

I went on to work in healthcare, before I started I had to have a blood test to see which jabs I needed to protect me and the patients.

There are other jobs where you need immunity. There are times when you are at risk of illness eg when you start school or uni.

IMHO your children should not be able to access public spaces, not get on a bus or train, not go to a play ground or park or to school/nursery.

The problem with withholding benefits or discriminating against children who haven’t been vaccinated is the government would then need to take responsibility for the complications arising from vaccinations. It’s not in their interests to do so as it would be costly.

Through something like the Vaccine Damage Payment scheme?

He11y

I'm assuming you can read. Have you seen the stats on the rise in measles cases over the last two years? Care to comment on that? Or is it 'fake news' too?

How much do you think an outbreak costs the NHS vs a comprehensive vaccination program?

He11y

www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

Interesting article in The Guardian about the rise of measles and populist ideas.

Or

Stupid is as stupid does.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/22/measles-rise-europe-populism-andrew-wakefield?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

@MissSusanSays the ONS stats I linked to earlier from the gov.uk website does not support the reported rise in measles cases. Sinecure 1996 (Wakefield), the rates of measles reported has continued to fall overall and rates are significantly lower than pre 1996. If the reported rate to August this year is extrapolated, it will be less than all but one year in the annual data report from 1940. Based on the ONS data for the UK, there is no 'Wakefield affect'. People have not been dying as a result. There is a fear around this but the actual reported statistics do not support this fear.

Forgiveness here is an up to date link

www.gov.uk/government/news/measles-outbreaks-across-england

It must be noted that the outbreak is significantly worse on the continent than in the UK so far.

828 laboratory confirmed cases of measles since 1 January this year. 277 total last year.

As to whether the rates are higher now than between 1940 and 1996, no. Why would they be? We are close to eradicating these diseases but are now seeing increases in numbers across Europe (including the UK but to a lesser extent) when we should be seeing decreases due to widely available vaccination.

I understand all deaths so far were in eastern Europe where the outbreak in one country this year is above 23,000

Try reading this guide from Oxford University @ForgivenessIsDivine

They are very clear that there has been a rise in cases. Interestingly, the only deaths in the U.K. in recent years have been unvaccinated children.

And the figure for confirmed measles case this year is 807. There were 227 cases in the whole of 2017. And children under 5 are the most at risk.

Measles cases had been declining between 2015 and 2017. But there is an increase again. Why do you think that is?

Sorry @MairyHole is right. It was 277 last year.

The problem with withholding benefits or discriminating against children who haven’t been vaccinated is the government would then need to take responsibility for the complications arising from vaccinations

Well in theory they already do because of the 1979 vaccine damage legislation. But in practice - I wonder if anyone ever gets anything. And is it really that much of a consolation? Your child suffers life-changing side effects, you get money to look after them, but you never have the life you wanted, they never have the life they wanted and all because you were forced to vaccinate them? And nobody will help you and you'll be ostracised at school/in life generally. People always go on about social responsibility on here, but it's so hypocritical because they wouldn't help if they knew a vaccine-damaged child (in most cases, some people do go above and beyond).

Get your own children vaccinated. But let other people make their own decisions. It should be down to them. Some peopel do vacicnate, but leave it a bit later. I did that with the MMR, my ds was vaccinated in infant school. He did have a small reaction and I am glad I left it until he was able to talk and tell me how he felt. It was no big drama, he had a day or two off school and has been fine ever since. He recently had the meningitis vaccine for teens without any drama. But it is the parents' decision.

I've said this before, and someone else made the same point on the SIL not vaccinating nieces thread - vaccination is an economic thing. It's cheaper to vaccinate and avoid having to pay to look after children being ill (and their parents having to take time off work to look after them). It's a no-brainer from a community and financial perspective. But on an individual basis, it should always be your decision, because your child might be the one who suffers an awful reaction. That will always be my viewpoint and I will never support compulsory vaccination for that reason. In all walks of life we decide what risks we want to take - this should be no different.

DiqoneTheDiabolist

All of the immunocompromised people I know became so as adults. They had been vaccinated as children and for most of their life they have been protected.

Immunocompromised means that they are now more at risk of contracting communicable diseases BrazenFox, not spreading them.

But if they catch one they can surely spread it! And yes, they are more at risk of catching diseases because of their weakened immune systems, more at risk than healthy unvccinated children surely? Hence more risk to other vulnerable members of society. Should they be banned from schools? Of course not. Should children unvaccinated for medical reasonsbe be banned from schools? Of course not. They are as likely or more likely than healthy unvaccinated children to catch and spread diseases.

Well that isn’t normal.. that is the sign of chronic underlying ill health so no wonder your measles symptoms were so bad when you eventually developed it . Can I ask how old you were when you had measles?
How many people with measles have you actually seen? Even a case of uncomplicated measles is very unpleasant, and we're talking about children suffering here! It's pretty easy to be blasé about a disease if you've never had it and are not going to get it (I know a fair number of anti-vaxxers and none of them had any childhood diseases).

Mandatory vaccinations are a slippery slope. Education is the key, if you don't want to vaccinate that is your choice, it might not be the right choice but it's important that we live in a free society.

The USA have mandatory vaccinations and now kids are given like 60 vaccinations because the drug companies are pushing for them to make more money.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2013

Prior to 2006, the last death from acute measles was in 1992. In 2006, there was 1 measles death in a 13-year-old male who had an underlying lung condition and was taking immunosuppressive drugs. Another death in 2008 was also due to acute measles in an unvaccinated child with a congenital immunodeficiency, whose condition did not require treatment with immunoglobulin. In 2013, 1 death was reported in a 25-year-old man following acute pneumonia as a complication of measles. In 2016, one death was reported in a 10-month-old infant who suffered complications due to a secondary infection.

All other measles deaths since 1992 shown above are in older individuals and were caused by the late effects of measles. These infections were acquired during the 1980s or earlier, when epidemics of measles occurred.

Get your own children vaccinated. But let other people make their own decisions. It should be down to them.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Self-interested people can't be relied upon to voluntarily vaccinate their child when they can more easily rely upon herd immunity, it's a well-known economic theory - 'the free-rider problem'.

Since immunisations require 95% uptake, it's compulsory or not at all.

The USA have mandatory vaccinations and now kids are given like 60 vaccinations because the drug companies are pushing for them to make more money.

Link, please?

The USA have mandatory vaccinations and now kids are given like 60 vaccinations because the drug companies are pushing for them to make more money.

Citation for this? Vaccines or antigens?

If vaccines were 100% innocuous then everyone would vaccinate. But they aren't. It's all very well trying to protect the small numbers of immunocompromised people in our society...but at what cost? Harming many other members of society via vaccination that their bodies can't handle? Do we value the lives of one above the other?

Then you make that choice for your child but you don't get to choose for other people. You inform people that your child is not vaccinated.

We'll ask the supermarket to announce it on the tannoy...