Rise of measles

[crosstalk]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/european-measles-death-toll-hits-37-after-antivax-campaigns-ztmwl9f3q

Just saying

birdsdestiny
Then you make that choice for your child but you don't get to choose for other people. You inform people that your child is not vaccinated.

And that was my earlier point....that if unvaccinated people need to announce themselves then so should immunocompromised people, because their risk of catching and spreading disease is higher. They can also catch disease from recently vaccinated children shedding live viruses...so do they want all recently vaccinated children to announce themselves as well?

Immunocompromised people do announce it , by having to avoid public places , not being able to do the same activities as other children , by having to go into isolation in hospital .

This:

Vaccination used to be for the good of the community. We were all part of a social compact. We were vaccinated and allowed our precious children to have jabs in order to deprive these diseases of a home in our midst. But this is another era, in which the individual is king, mistrust of authority is rife and vaccine-preventable diseases may well be making a major comeback.

(Sarah Boseley writing in the Guardian today)

If vaccines were 100% innocuous then everyone would vaccinate. But they aren't. It's all very well trying to protect the small numbers of immunocompromised people in our society...but at what cost? Harming many other members of society via vaccination that their bodies can't handle? Do we value the lives of one above the other?
Only the likelihood of a reaction to a vaccine it actually less than that of an immunocompromised person catching something. Oh, and not all immunocompromised people have cancer, there are many, many reasons for being immunocompromised and actually the numbers are far greater than most people think. It isn't just cancer, there are many folk who suffer with auto immune disorders, chrohns disease, colitis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis to name a few. All these folk are likely to be immunocompromised. So when you talk about 'the small numbers' maybe you need to think again.

And this @Brazenfox

They can also catch disease from recently vaccinated children shedding live viruses...so do they want all recently vaccinated children to announce themselves as well?
This is extraordinarily rare.

Some people may sadly suffer a reaction to a vaccine.

Some people suffer from side effects from every other drug both prescribed and OTC.

Do anti vaxxers refuse ALL treatments for their children, for fear of a side effect or are they very selective?

What are the risks of suffering ling term health damage vs damage from vaccines?

Honestly if only your child is at risk then do what you like but you have no right to risk the health of others too.

i havent been through the whole thread so apologies if it has been said, but the numbers are sadly going to continue to rise. This is not a dig or anti-immigration piece, but with larger numbers coming to Europe who come from countries where (unfortunately) vaccines arent available to all; now is absolutely the time if medically able to ensure vaccinations are done.

Arthuritis i noticed that the question about other medications & treatments has been asked a few times now but has yet to be answered...

Well in theory they already do because of the 1979 vaccine damage legislation. But in practice - I wonder if anyone ever gets anything. And is it really that much of a consolation? Your child suffers life-changing side effects, you get money to look after them, but you never have the life you wanted, they never have the life they wanted and all because you were forced to vaccinate them? And nobody will help you and you'll be ostracised at school/in life generally. People always go on about social responsibility on here, but it's so hypocritical because they wouldn't help if they knew a vaccine-damaged child (in most cases, some people do go above and beyond).

runningkeenster don't you think that this ^^ also applies to children that are not vaccinated? I mean the risks of life changing complications is far higher from illnesses like measles than from the actual vaccine. Or take polio as an more obvious example... that really speaks for itself.

A sense of there being any responsibility towards an overall community is diminishing fast.

@pissedoff if you look at the Facebook group Arnica ( although I wouldn't recommend it as it will just make you angry!) They seem to advocate using no modern medicine at all. They believe elderberry syrup, garlic and fresh onions will cure and prevent all illnesses 🙄

I’m deaf in one ear, issues with mobility and balance as a child and problems with my eyesight due to my mother contracting Rubella/German Measles while pregnant with me.

I have 3 children all who are vaccinated, my youngest is still only a baby so still has some immunisations to go. My eldest is a teen and has also had her HPV vaccination.

As someone who suffered and has lifelong effects of such an illness I’ll do everything I can to ensure I protect my children as much a possible. My mother suffered cervical cancer and died, so I was over the moon that the HPV vaccine can into force.

With above said I have still worried each time I’ve had to get my children vaccinated, especially my eldest when there was much controversy over the link to MMR and autism. All things considered and personally experiencing what can happen when not vaccinated I chose to vaccinate mine.

I really think that if people who choose not to vaccinate experienced any one of the lifelong effects of these illnesses would really be very regretful about their choices. It’s life though and it’s their choice to make. Whilst it’s not a choice I agree with, it is one I have to respect and I mean that in the sense that I have to respect that it’s someone’s choice to make.

If you want to change things, challenge the system. Trampling over another persons rights and freedoms to make the choice that they are entitled to make is of little effect in the grand scheme of things.

@MissSusanSays and @MairyHole

This is still not a significant trend and cannot be linked to Wakefield.

Lab confirmed cases:
2013 1,151 (826 of which were in the first 6 months)
2014 129
2015 69
2016 338
2017 124 (based on this link..

2018 91 1st quarter only
www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-confirmed-cases/measles-notifications-and-confirmed-cases-by-quarter-in-england-2013-to-2015

Reported cases
2010 2235
2011 2355
2012 4210
2013 6102
2014 1851
2015 1193
2016 1642
2017 2522

First, that link only has data for the first quarter of 2018. What's wrong with my link which has lab confirmed cases for last year and this year to August 2018?

Second, care to comment on the numbers for Europe as a whole...?

The point also remains that the numbers should be steadily declining but are in fact increasing. So saying that we aren't at mass epidemic levels seen before vaccination is... obvious... nonetheless there are measles outbreaks across Europe as reported in the media.

The "Wakefield" effect is being discussed due to ages of those infected with mumps and measles and lower vaccine uptake for a couple of years. Vaccine rates have substantially recovered in the UK, less so in Italy and Romania where there is now a big outbreak, hence the story.

What's your point? That MMR uptake wasn't affected at the time of the autism scare? It was. That the current out breaks across Europe aren't due to low vaccination uptake? They are.

BlaaBlaaBlaa i have heard of that group but always avoided for the very reason you said...it will make me outrageously angry. I have no time for people like that i'm afraid.

I wonder how many anti-vaxxers are not signed up with any GP surgery...after all, if they are lying to you about the necessity of vaccinations surely they are lying about anything they say?

It was mentioned in another vaccination thread and I made the mistake of looking. It's truly frightening.
From what I can see they use the doctor for a diagnosis then treat it problem themselves. None of them seem to acknowledge the irony.

Wakefield Effect: An action so stupid it causes the suffering and demise of a large group of people. This is quite blatantly a lie.

People are not dying or suffering in large numbers. There has not been a significant increase in notified measles cases or deaths since 1996.

There are bigger things to be afraid of, things that cause more deaths, causes and people more deserving of your anger.

For those who pointed me towards the vaccination damage scheme - I am aware that exists.

What I am saying is the government will have to take responsibility for all children damaged by vaccines if they force parents to vaccinate rather than the few with the wherewithall to navigate the system as it stands at present. Parents would rightly want some form of redress, especially if they only vaccinated because they couldn’t afford not to.

They would be placing themselves squarely in the line of responsibility and they won’t want that. Simply put, they’ll be removing a lot of the wriggle room they have now.

Sure there are other things too, but we don't only ever care about the absolutely worse things faced by humanity. We care about everything that causes unnecessary death and suffering. Which is why no-one should deny the existence of vaccine side effects.

The danger comes in relying on misinformation on vaccine side effects.

Worst not worse

Wakefield Effect: An action so stupid it causes the suffering and demise of a large group of people. This is quite blatantly a lie.

No. No it's not - I might have put in the words leads to in place of causes but that's just semantics, doesn't change the overall sentiment.

People are not dying or suffering in large numbers. There has not been a significant increase in notified measles cases or deaths since 1996.

See, you must have missed that the significant increase is in the process of happening now.

There are bigger things to be afraid of, things that cause more deaths, causes and people more deserving of your anger.

Yes, but it's picking our battles between things we can do something about and things we can't so:

We can do something to control, minimise the effects of and, maybe in some cases, eradicate certain communicable diseases through a comprehensive vaccination program.

We can't do anything at all to control, minimise the effects of or, unfortunately, eradicate Donald Trump for instance.

Taking cathmidstons argument to its logical conclusion, children will only get ill with measles or whatever if they are not nourished well. Given the current rise in food bank use, by her argument there are a lot of vulnerable children out there, so a need for mass vaccination. Or don't anti-vaxxers care about the children of the poor?

He11y, how would you envision that ‘responsibility’ manifesting? What’s your test?