I don't agree this is victim blaming

[TeeJay1970]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-45232993

I know what victim blaming is so there is no need to define it for me.

Surely this is just good advice?

The police have had to apologise for encouraging

"friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group"

Isn't that what good friends do?

It IS victim blaming. The focus needs to be on the rapists, as they cause rape.
By shifting it to women they're implying victims are to blame somehow.

A lot of the time, men who raped were out with a group of friends, too. So why did nobody notice that their friend was eyeing a drunken woman? Why did nobody notice that a friend's behaviour around the women in the bar was inappropriate and make it his business to hang around the friend like a leech until he'd got him home?

My dd, who lives in London and moves in student circles said she noticed one instant effect of #MeToo. Suddenly, for the first time in her life, the men at the same party noticed when somebody was behaving inappropriately towards her. It was such a new experience that she rang to tell me about it the next day- it had never happened in her life before. She was used to women noticing, but never men.

I was out one Christmas and my friend got staggeringly, slurred speech drunk. To my disgust, there was a man who had clocked the state she was in and was hanging around, trying to 'dance' with her etc. I told him to fuck off, and got my friend home in a cab. She remembers none of this.

It wasn't work. It wasn't emotional labour. It was common bloody decency and if any kid of mine wasn't savvy or bothered enough to do the same for their friends I'd be horrified.

This is well-put. I agree wholeheartedly.

The reason this advice is offensive is because we'd all like to think, being nice people, that this is what non-defective humans do when they're out with their friends. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

I would actually like to see a giant signs in a bars everywhere that IF YOU HAVE SEX WITH A WOMEN WHO IS EXTREMELY DRUNK YOU ARE A RAPIST -DON'T DO IT.

Advice which doesn't mention anything about ensuring that you have consent before you put your penis in a woman.

I have had exceedingly uncomfortable conversations with my almost-16 year old son about just this.

To dismiss anyone who says they do have those conversations is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also not something anyone else would know.

For me, it’s always been part of how I raise my children, and having autistic sons who struggle with knowing what is and isn’t appropriate or ok to say out loud sometimes my focus is all the more on that.

So yes, I have age appropriate conversations with them, and with DD about consent, about not touching someone when they haven’t said its ok, about being confident enough to say they don’t want whatever kind of physical contact.

I’ve had the explicit conversation with my 16 year old nephew, not that he’s a prick, but because I wanted to ensure he knew what is and isn’t consent and how to be sure.

I like the idea of signs, maybe in the toilets? It had a big impact during the AIDS campaigns of the early 90s.

@C8H10N4O2

"So in summary across your posts your position is that only a tiny number of men rape and they are solely culpable?"

A tiny number of men are rapists. This is a fact and I don't think I've said it here. It's a given.

Well, for most people.

"The "tiny minority" is at odds with the number of women who describe sexual assault and coercion. "

Two things are wrong with this short sentence. The first is the problematic statistics about 'unrecorded sexual assault' and the second is your assumption that every 'crime' is committed by a different perpetrator and that these perps are more significant than the arbitrary "tiny".

Yes, rapists are solely culpable. The only possible alternative to this being that someone as well as the rapist is to blame.

So, if you think I'm wrong, who else is to blame if a man or woman is raped? The victim? Parents of the rapist? Friends of the victim (assuming they were out with friends to begin with).

The only person to blame is the rapist.

How can you possibly think differently?

"the distinction between innocence and guilt in victims is a large component of why crimes by men against women are taken less seriously than crimes against property."

Ignoring the fact that you are obtusely twisting my words, are you going to back up what you claim? What crime against women is taken less seriously than a crime against property and what are you basing this on?

@corythatwas

Why do you assume that women have female friends and men have male friends? The advice about friends looking out for each other isn't gendered.

In my experience (I guess I have good friends in my mostly mixed social circle), the men have looked after women as in, they've been the taxi callers and the ones who sit outside with the drunk woman until something can be done with her.

I agree with @BertrandRussell in that targeting men with friends is a good idea. It's not so much blaming their friends but making sure that their friends aren't being intimidating and that they don't condone bad behaviour. If treating women like 'sluts' wasn't a social thing between men and the well meaning man pulled their friend aside and said that his behaviour was disgusting, this would really help demonise that behaviour.

People are shying away from the fact that it might well be their son who, while not being a man with a knife down by the gasworks at midnight sort of rapist may very well be the “well, she hasn’t exactly said no so I’ll carry on” sort of rapist. Or the “Go on mate, she was gagging for it earlier, i’ll hold your beer” sort of rape accessory,

I envy your friendship group then @drastard I do not know any guy other than my husband who would or ever would have, sorted me out when drunk.

They either would have / did take advantage or they were the ones drunk and I sorted out their transport.

So you don't talk to your sons about their own sexual behaviour?

No, firstly because we had those discussions a long time ago & saying it every time would be a bit trite.

Secondly, because statistically they're more likely to get beaten up than raped (both have been attacked), so my warnings (victim blaming?) are about keeping away from areas/situations where they'll get beaten up.

And to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I personally think that being beaten up so badly you can't see through the swelling and having intermittent memory loss for a couple of weeks for the crime of walking along the wrong alley is worse than getting so ratted you can't remember if you said "yes" to a shag or not.

No, firstly because we had those discussions a long time ago & saying it every time would be a bit trite.”
We live near the sea. I remind every time mine go out. Is that “trite” too?

L@SlartiAardvark but it's not always that though is it?

Often it's being groped or whatnot by someone you barely spoke to.

Plus I also think violence is disgusting and do agree it's terrifying but again it's a shame your sons are made to feel they can't go to x pub because some asshole will hurt them.

I think anyone being told that doing something innocent could get you hurt because x type of people will be there is disgusting.

My sisters best friend got beaten to death as he was 'gay' he worked near the place he was beaten up but he was in an area where gays were not tolerated apparently even though it was Clapham .

I know that the world will always have vile people in it and we will not eradicate crime. However, by getting the good people to step in and put down these people so other good people can be present.

@SlartiAardvark even sorry.

We live near the sea. I remind every time mine go out.

You're obviously more worried that yours have "rapey" tendencies than I am then. You may have trust issues.

Or you're one of those people that go on and on and on......

I think anyone being told that doing something innocent could get you hurt because x type of people will be there is disgusting.

Yes I agree. I just don't get outraged over it like some on here do.

It's similar to telling cyclists to wear Hi Viz & put a flashing light on, even in the daytime - surely we should just tell car drivers not to run them over!!

I put the Hi Viz on personally, I'd rather look like a twat than be right & dead......

"You're obviously more worried that yours have "rapey" tendencies than I am then. You may have trust issues."

I think the correct Mumsnet expression is "did you mean to be so rude?"

People should he more worried tbh.

When 1/3 of your dds are sexually harassed at school, some in class woth their rapists and parents minimise predatory behaviour the whole of their sons lives, I don't think parents are worried enough tbh

You're obviously more worried that yours have "rapey" tendencies than I am then. You may have trust issues

I’m willing to bet that every mother of every rapist ever born has said “oh but I didn’t think he was like that”

And warning your adult children not to get pissed and go in the sea isn’t having trust issues, it’s common fucking sense.

Again, I'm not getting why it's thought there aren't campaigns aimed at potential rapists and that conversations with boys and young men surrounding consent aren't happening when they patently are.

Don't be that guy
Did you get consent
We can stop it
The TEA campaign

All the above and more, well-publicized, and aimed at men going back several years.

And just about every uni and college campus has its own version these days, again, all aimed at educating men. Fairly certain it's a conversation that's had in sex ed in schools these days too.

It's disingenuous to claim these conversations aren't already happening when they are and it's ultimately obstructive and counterproductive to minimize the genuine efforts some authorities are making to raise awareness among men. Why should they bother if they're not only ignored by women's groups but actively dismissed? Are these campaigns not acknowledged here because they don't fit the narrative that the authorities don't care or don't take it seriously enough? It makes me wonder who actually benefits from telling women to exercise their right to not do anything to minimize risk? I know it's not women.

skarti

What has warning your boys not to go in the sea while pissed have to do with them having rapey tendencies

Id warn mine but even though we are a five minute walk from the beach they have no interest in going there...familiarity has bred contempt in their case

MyDirtyLittleSecret

I will admit to not having heard of any of those except the tea one, which as far as I know isn't a 'campaign' as such, it's a very good video which has been shared on social media.

However, having googled I can see the We Can Stop It Campaign (a Scottish police campaign) and it looks excellent. That is exactly what I would like to see more alongside the advice about how to stay safe when you are out.

What has warning your boys not to go in the sea while pissed have to do with them having rapey tendencies

Hang on - Bertram was banging on about people not telling their children not to rape every time they leave the house. I was replying in a similar vein.

And warning your adult children not to get pissed and go in the sea isn’t having trust issues, it’s common fucking sense.

Certainly sounds like nagging/trust issues to me - I certainly don't tell mine not to get pissed & jump in the river every time they go on a night out - because they're not fucking stupid & I trust them....

Hangingaroundtheportal I googled them myself.

Why? Mostly, because, while I couldn't remember any of the names or the actual authorities that created and promoted them, I knew I'd certainly seen them and many others like them. There have been more and more references to similar pushes to action in the last few years and couldn't believe none of the posters saying "talk to men, tell them not to rape" hadn't seen even one of them. I just think if posters are going to claim these conversations don't exist they should at least make sure they don't exist.

And I'm so glad to see you say "alongside the advice about how to stay safe when you are out." because this does not have to be an either this message or that message - it can, and should, be both.

Hang on - Bertram was banging on about people not telling their children not to rape every time they leave the house. I was replying in a similar vein.

You quoted the comment referring to the sea.

Certainly sounds like nagging/trust issues to me - I certainly don't tell mine not to get pissed & jump in the river every time they go on a night out - because they're not fucking stupid & I trust them....

Corrie McKeague and Allan Bryant Jr’s parents said the same, that they trusted their boys. Sadly, it turns out that gentle reminders are often helpful. Not in any way blaming the parents, or indeed the boys themselves, just saying that it’s easy to be confident before the worst happens.

I don’t think you know what “trust issues” means, either.