I don't agree this is victim blaming

[TeeJay1970]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-45232993

I know what victim blaming is so there is no need to define it for me.

Surely this is just good advice?

The police have had to apologise for encouraging

"friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group"

Isn't that what good friends do?

@BertrandRussell

I'll keep answering all of your questions. When will you answer any of mine?

"why would you not remind your son about enthusiastic consent?"

Because he doesn't need to be reminded. I think that treating everyone in the way you wish to be treated covers everything.

So, Where should the list of crimes we remind our children not to commit end?

@Hangingaroundtheportal

I'm not making a rookie mistake, sadly. You're making the rookie mistake of assuming I don't have experience of the subject at hand. The difference is I don't think society is to blame. I think the rapist is.

"Oh and women can't be convicted of rape. Not in this country anyway."

I know. Why do you say so? The woman in my example allegedly raped because the law is different in her country. In other countries the age of consent is different too.

@YeTalkShiteHen

You haven't adressed any of my points.

"are you this deliberately goady in RL?"

One woman's 'goady' is anothers asking questions to try and get an answer from someone who thinks 'apparently' s a useful word.

I have, you just don’t understand the answers.

Apparently you think rape isn’t the societal issue that it is, and that women are to blame.

How exactly do you expect a sensible conversation?

drastard

Do you think that if Brock Turner's father had educated him about consent, rather than later calling what his son did to his victim '20 minutes of action', Brock might have avoided jail and now be the all star Olympic swimmer that he was destined to be, rather than instead ending up on the sex offenders register?

@Hangingaroundtheportal

No. Not for a second.

Think it boils down to some very simple points really.
There is no excuse for a man to rape or assault a woman, full stop. It doesn't matter if she's drunk, wearing a suit of armour or a bikini. No excuse at all. But then in the vast majority of cases, a man who's going to rape or assault a woman already knows that, and disregard it. Having a daughter, and being a woman, my main concern when talking about this is not being raped, or assaulted. Yes, education may stop some of these crimes, teaching boys about consent, the effect alcohol has on someone's ability to consent or their own ability to read the signs of refusal of consent, but it's not going to stop it completely. Some men will still actively look for vulnerable targets, and no amount of education is going to change that mindset. Which means there is still a risk. If my daughter is ever in a position to be vulnerable, whatever the circumstances, I hope someone steps in and make sure she gets home safely, because as far as I can see you can never eliminate the risk that a vulnerable woman could be assaulted or raped and if a campaign like that can raise the awareness of bar staff, door staff and the public in general, so she's helped to not be in a position for a predatory male to have an opportunity, then for me, that's a good thing.
I don't think it's victim blaming, to me victim blaming is when someone is in a vulnerable position, assaulted or worse, and then we (society, the law etc) turn round and say "It was your own fault for being drunk/wearing provocative clothing/being female/being alone" and totally excusing the person who committed the crime on these grounds.
As I said at the start of this post, there's no excuse at all, but nothing is ever going to eliminate the risk completely, so accepting that, I just want myself and my daughter as safe as possible.

I don't think it's victim blaming. It seems we can no longer discuss any factor around crime other than asking criminals not to do it.

These debates online are irrelevant anyway. All reasonable parents have these conversations with their kids, and they always will.

I haven't read full thread so maybe it's moved on since then. But sexual assault isn't like other crimes in that your most likely to be attacked by someone who knows you. The woman sat outside drunk is more likely to be attacked by the mate who sits with her claiming to get her home safe. The woman is more likely to be drunk because the friendly guy she met that night has been buying her doubles non-stop telling her they are singles in an aim to get her drunk than her deciding to get paralytic.

Someone has compared getting really drunk to flashing cash and getting mugged. The comparison is more like leaving your boyfriend in your house only to find he's gone through your wallet and stolen the cash when you were in the shower .

9/10 the victim of sexual assault will know her attacker. That's why it's not the same as bulgary or mugging which are most likely to be done by strangers.

No. Not for a second.

Well that's where you and me are different then. The fact that his father called a serious sexual assault behind a dumpster '20 minutes of action' tells us a lot about the way that Brock Turner was brought up. If you think that that had absolutely no effect on Turner's behaviour, that he was 'born to be a sex offender' or whatever and there is no way that that situation could have been avoided because Brock Turner having so little respect for women that he would sexually assault one behind some bins is just an inevitability, then we will have to just agree to disagree on this one.

Haven’t read the whole thread but I don’t see why it is wrong to give advice to reduce the likelihood of a crime taking place, wherever it is aimed.

To those saying it’s victim blaming, would it be better, worse or no different if there was a parallel campaign aimed at men?

I think that the following is also good advice. Is it also victim-blaming?

• When out, keep an eye on your drink to make sure no one slips anything in it.
• Keep your bag in front of you when on the tube
• Use a strong lock for your bike and make sure it goes around the wheels.
• Use lights and reflective clothing when cycling at night

“So, Where should the list of crimes we remind our children not to commit end?“

Any crime which is ambiguous to the extent that the person committing the crime has to decide whether it’s a crime or not, and which could happen at any party or night out. Where my son has to decide whether a drunk girl is able to consent or not. I reckon that’s worthy of a bit of a reminder don’t you? So, I don’t feel the need to remind him not to throw a brick through a shop window. I do feel the need to remind him that if he has the slightest doubt about consent to not have sex.

Only read first page but it absolutely was victim, and everyone else blaming, apart from the actual person who is 100% to blame - the man who takes advantage of such situations.

Disgusting campaign and I'm glad it's been taken down.

drastard. I’m writing this who doesn’t actually believe what the Police did was victim-blaming in itself, but to take your definition....

Sex with someone who doesn't want it to happen

What about when it’s not clear whether she wants sex, such as if she is too drunk or drugged to be coherent, or if she is passive and doesn’t actively engage (out or fear, shock or some previous flashback)?

Boys (and men if they don’t know already) need to be taught that where there is doubt, and where a woman hasn’t clearly indicated that she is, and remains, interested in sex, that they should not assume consent has been implied by the lack of a clear ‘No’ or physical resistance, and they should not attempt to have sex as they may be raping her if they do.

This is essential for all young men to know as if they are merely told that rape is an unmistakably violent and forceful act carried out on screaming and resisting women by ‘bad men’ (which is how it has historically been portrayed), an otherwise decent young man, without any particular malice, can all too easily rape a woman.

It's certainly right to teach girls how to minimise risks to their safety when on a night out, and to look out for their mates with them. I would hate to think of my DDs being vulnerable and alone following a night out (thankfully there's a good few years before I need to worry about that).

I think that the problem here is that the police have focused exclusively on sexual assault. We can all agree that a woman who gets intoxicated during a night out and ends up abandoned by her mates is vulnerable. But not just of being sexually assaulted. She's also in danger of being knocked down by a car, falling into a river and drowning, hypothermia or alcohol poisoning. The focus on sexual assault does make this sound like victim blaming.

And as several PPs have rightly pointed out, a woman who is inebriated is more likely to be raped by a man she went out with or whom she met her whilst she was out and offers to give her a lift home.

To follow up on my last post, I don’t see why you can’t have both:

a) advice for women on how to keep yourself safe given we know rape happens

b) clear education for boys about consent

That said, I do get annoyed with the “just tell rapists not to rape” response as that implies that all rape is the ‘bad man in an alley’ type, and is as daft as “just tell burglars not to burgle!” In response to being advised to lock your house.

The problem with comparing rape to something like burglary is that the two are treated very differently by both society and the courts.

When people hear someone has been burgled, they never ask “did the person deserve it?” Or “was it the person’s fault?” The response is always “poor Mr and Mrs Smith. I hope they’re ok, I hope nothing too valuable was taken, I hope they can still feel safe in their house, I hope the burglar is caught and given a proper sentence in court”.

Then in court the jury just listen to the case based on the facts. They’re not given history of the burgled people’s behaviour, to decide whether or not they “provoked” the burglary or whether they were likely to have wanted it.

Whereas when people hear someone was raped, the reaction is more, “well, was she drunk? Did she lead him on? Was she out on her own? Does she have form for sleeping with random men?” And some people even think “well if she’ll go out drunk dressed like that then it’s her fault - what can she expect, dirty slapper”.

This attitude feeds through to the court where juries not only look at the facts of did he penetrate her without her consent but also look at how likely she is to have consented, based on “did she take enough precautions to stop this from happening?” If not, it’s deemed her fault and the guy is found not guilty - I.e. well she was drunk so she probably did give off signals that she was keen, how was he to know? Or; she dressed in a short skirt so he would have thought she was up for it”.

THAT’s the difference - people make a judgement about the victims of rape in a way they don’t make judgements about victims of other crimes. And that feeds through to conviction rates, which are woefully low for rape.

If all adverts were targeted at men, I.e. “if she’s drunk, help her find her mates, do not take her home and do no assume consent”, then society’s views will start to change and when someone is raped people will start to ask different questions, I.e. “why didn’t he help her find her friends? Why didn’t he go and get her a glass of water? Why didn’t he take her home and then leave her there after making sure she was ok?”. This is also how juries would start to think and the blame would shift to the attacker, rather than the victim.

By all means advise your own daughter to stay safe but official advice needs to be aimed at the actual problem, which is male behaviour.

Sarah Silverman (I believe) circulated this helpful PSA poster

(I've snipped the 10 points into separate files to hopefully ensure legibility)

@BertrandRussell

"I do feel the need to remind him that if he has the slightest doubt about consent to not have sex."

OK.

So, if he rapes, should you have reminded him in harsher or more forthright language?

Do you think your reminders have stopped your son raping?

If parents have the responsibility to explain this frequently to their adult children then the logical conclusion (and I don't think it's reducto ad absurdum and neither does @Hangingaroundtheporta) that they must take a fraction of the blame if the child does go on to rape?

If not, why not?

@BarnabyBungle

You're muddying the waters with comments like "if she is passive and doesn’t actively engage". How active is active? How passive for it to become rape?

"otherwise decent young man, without any particular malice, can all too easily rape a woman."

What? Accidental rape? No one, without malice, can accidentally rape.

“Do you think your reminders have stopped your son raping?”

I don’t know. I hope they will have made him think about consent and about the way his friends think about consent. I hope he will never have sex with anyone if he is in the slightest doubt about their enthusiastic consent. I hope he will do his best to make sure his friends do the same.

@ConkerGame

There's so much wrong with your post but two points.

"And that feeds through to conviction rates, which are woefully low for rape."

Conviction rates are inline with other serious crimes. #rapemyths

"The problem with comparing rape to something like burglary is that the two are treated very differently by both society and the courts."

Yes, but not for the reasons you give. The difference is that sex is usually proven to have occurred in rape cases. This is not the question the jury need to answer. In crimes like burglary, the question is whether the accused was present in the property.

@Bertrand

I've answered every single one of the questions you've addressed to me. Why can't you answer mine?

“If parents have the responsibility to explain this frequently to their adult children then the logical conclusion (and I don't think it's reducto ad absurdum and neither does @Hangingaroundtheporta) that they must take a fraction of the blame if the child does go on to rape?“

It depends what you mean by blame. I would certainly feel that I had failed as a parent if my son raped someone- wouldn’t you? And we do live in a society where some types of rape are tacitly condoned-as I said earlier, “Yes means yes and no means maybe”. The very fact that we have all these rules for girls, about how they behave and dress and so on, and none for boys highlights that.

@drastard -what haven’t I answered?

@drastard sorry if I got the terminology wrong - most rapes aren’t reported so the official conviction rates don’t reflect the fact that there are lots of other people out there who have raped someone and not been convicted.

And yes I know juries need to look at consent for rape - that’s why rape needs to be treated differently from other crimes. We need to shift society’s view from “why did she give off vibes that she was consenting by being drunk and wearing a short skirt?” To “why didn’t he triple check that she was consenting? Why didn’t he know that she was incapable of consenting because she was drunk?”

Until we switch the focus to male behaviour, women will continue to be disbelieved about rape and (otherwise seemingly nice, normal) men will continue to rape with impunity.

" I would certainly feel that I had failed as a parent if my son raped someone- wouldn’t you?"

No.

Do you realise that this is shifting the blame from the rapist? Not victim blaming, obviously, but not holding the rapist entirely responsible. How is this ok?

"as I said earlier, “Yes means yes and no means maybe”"

This is something you've said. Not something society says.

" The very fact that we have all these rules for girls, about how they behave and dress and so on, and none for boys highlights that."

No it doesn't. It shows that we advise people to keep safe. Targeted advice is a good thing. Advice, not blame. Advice!

@ConkerGame

'most rapes aren’t reported'

I'm yet to find a study on this that wasn't completely flawed.

"We need to shift society’s view"

Do we? To what end?

“why didn’t he triple check that she was consenting?"

I did. (says accused)

"Why didn’t he know that she was incapable of consenting because she was drunk?”

I did and she did and we were both intoxicated. (says accused)

[back to square 1.]

//--------

It's noticeable that you think drunk women don't want to have sex and must be victims some how. I do / did enjoy sex when I was certainly too drunk to make an informed choice but don't for a second think I was raped. I'm not a victim.

“If parents have the responsibility to explain this frequently to their adult children then the logical conclusion (and I don't think it's reducto ad absurdum and neither does @Hangingaroundtheporta) that they must take a fraction of the blame if the child does go on to rape?“

Like Bertrand said, it depends what you mean by blame.

I remember when the Ched Evans thing was going on, one of the thoughts that I kept coming back to was that, regardless of whether or not he was found guilty, if Evans had been my son I would be completely and utterly mortified, ashamed and would feel like I had totally failed as a parent.

Wouldn't you? If Ched Evans was your son? Or Brock Turner? Would you not wonder if you could have done something differently? If you could have raised them to have more respect for women and their bodies?