I don't agree this is victim blaming

[TeeJay1970]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-45232993

I know what victim blaming is so there is no need to define it for me.

Surely this is just good advice?

The police have had to apologise for encouraging

"friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group"

Isn't that what good friends do?

drastard just because you’re missing the entire point, doesn’t mean anyone has to explain anything to you.

Read the news, open your eyes, and stop being so bloody obtuse!

Read any news coverage of a woman being raped or murdered, the blame is there. Every fucking time.

Don’t be so lazy and do your own research.

Is this same discussion happening on Dadsnet? Is there an equivalent of MN for men where this is being discussed? When women talk (endlessly) among themselves about rape / drinking / consent, are parallel discussions happening among men?

I’ve got two DSs, still young. We talk about consent - not sexual at this point, but certainly about not using your physical strength just because you want to, and always always stopping when someone says No. But I can’t imagine men of any age - teens, students, adult friends - debating this between themselves the way we are here. Do any of you know if your husbands / sons talk about these issues?

@YeTalkShiteHen

"Don’t be so lazy and do your own research."

Universally synonymous with 'there is no proof of anything I've asserted' and I can't explain myself very well.

You're talking shite, hen.

@Hangingaroundtheportal

Still not examples just you typing something.

I've never heard of "It's reaaaaaaly not rape'.

@BogStandardBelle

"Do any of you know if your husbands / sons talk about these issues?"

Personal safety? Yes. Men call it victim blaming though. They think of it as intelligent advice and don't confuse it.

The debate is always hijacked by those who don't understand that telling someone to keep safe is not victim blaming and then moves on to 'blurred lines' of rape.

I’m cutting and pasting my previous post because I think it’s a point that needs to be addressed but never is.Maybe because people find it too uncomfortable?
“OK. I am sure we all give our teen girls and boys the safety talk before they go out- the looking out for each other, keeping together talk? Yes? I live near the sea, so I add the bit about going more than ankle deep in the dark or if you've had a drink.

How many of us remind our boys that consent means enthusiastic consent? That drunk people can't consent? And crucially how many of us remind our boys to keep an eye on the behaviour of their friends and to step in if they think a friend is pushing it when it comes to consent?”

"How many of us remind our boys that consent means enthusiastic consent?"

No. Why would we?

Drunk people can consent.

It was quite an interesting conversation until drastard came bulldozing in spraying stupid everywhere

The idea that boys/men never discuss this is one of the many myths perpetrated here. From KS1 to KS5 consent (clearly not sexual in the early years) is discussed at length. Most parents (I would hazard) teach their children that any form of physical play is not ok unless both are enjoying it. And that clearly extends to sex at an appropriate age.

There are some horrific stories where abusers continue to be in class with abused. However that is a failure of the system, not a failure of intent.

Another myth is that because most violent crime is committed by men, most men are (at least potentially) violent criminals. That is a logical fallacy. Someone posted upthread that if a woman was passed out 50-75% of men would rape them if they could not be caught. I would say that is closer to 1%. Ask yourself how many of your male friends you think would do it? And, no, you don’t all have these special men friends who are separate to the rest of the male population.

If a woman was passed out drunk, the vast majority of men and women would walk on by. It is so normalised that most would think ‘oh, another Saturday night’, leaving the emergency services to mop up the mess, at great cost to all.

Getting so drunk that you cannot remember the night before is not a right worth fighting for. As someone said upthread (to make a different point), drunk driving was once seen as a bit of a lark and a right. Yes, you can now legally drink yourself into A&E free of charge (oh, the wonderful NHS). I would wager that right won’t last forever.

Assault is never right, but nor is drinking to the point of stupefaction. There should definitely be more campaigns aimed against lads’ night out. Lary and out-of-control men are not cool or a pretty sight. However the big increase in alcohol related disease is in women, who want a false equality in this area (biology is not bigotry, on average they have smaller body weight, blood volume and livers), The error in the police campaign was to focus on sexual assault. The idea that both sexes should drink less and look after one another is just common sense.

All I've done is ask a few questions which seemingly no one can answer.

Feel free to not get personal, oh, and DFOD.

Are you unpleasant in real life?

Drunk drivers know drink driving is wrong....

Do you think a campaign telling everyone that murder is bad would reduce murder rates?

The campaign to reduce drunk driving has been extremely effective. A mix of enforcement, awareness and social ostracisation for those who did it has seen rates plummet.

It's also happening with drug driving now too.

Tell me why it can't be done with sexual assault and rape, where we place the blame squarely at the criminals doing it instead of focusing on what someone looked like or had done immediately before?

“How many of us remind our boys that consent means enthusiastic consent?"

No. Why would we?”

So they don’t turn into the sort of men who think “Yes means yes and no means maybe”

I totally agree Bertrand, and I’ll be having that discussion many times over the years. I’m totally determined to, even if it is uncomfortable and difficult. My oldest is big and strong for his age (10) and he uses his strength to make his little bro do what he wants sometimes. I always, always intervene.

Yet I know that in the playground, at school, in the park the big kids (stronger) push the little kids (weaker) around, and they see it as totally normal. Law of the jungle and all.

I guess my point is that We (DH and I) are not going to be the only influences on our sons over the years. And I can only try my absolute hardest to hammer home messages about consent while they are vaguely receptive to it ie a captive audience :-) but if it’s only coming as a lecture from mum and it’s not reinforced through by their peer group or messages from the media...

I totally take on board what many if the posters here are saying - that rapists aren’t weirdos lurking in the shadows, they are fathers, boyfriends, teachers, students, taxi drivers. If all these men aren’t backing up what we are teaching, is our message going to be enough?

They were all answered pages ago drastard

But yes I am this horrible IRL. Now it’s obviously your responsibility to get off the thread in case you get hurt, hey?

@BertrandRussell

Where should the list of reminders end? Remember boys, no raping, murdering, pillaging, theft, insider trading, obtaining property under false pretenses or forgetting to SORN your vehicle?

Rapists rape. They always will. A tiny number of men are rapists. A tiny number of women rape.

Do you think any rapist has ever had their minds changed because their parents reminded them of consent?

Do you think Asia Argento just needed a reminder that 17 year old boys can't consent to sex?

I’m horrible in RL too. [helpful emoticon]

Drastard- just so we know we’re on the same page, can you define “rape” please?

@ShotsFired

Because we have enforcement, social ostracisation and awareness of rape and it being bad.

The focus on drink and drug driving having consequences for innocent victims is, I believe, what enabled change. This doesn't apply to rape. The crimes are completely different. The binary and conclusive evidence, for a start.

Sex with someone who doesn't want it to happen or is too young to consent (like the boy in my example).

drastard are you this deliberately goady in RL?

No, I don’t think Asia Argento needed a reminder, I think that an out of court settlement for the sexual assault of a minor is appalling, and shouldn’t be allowed.

Drunk people can’t consent if they’re not able to talk! Ask Ched Evans. He also proves that the law is stacked in favour of the men, not the women.

You’ve had your questions answered. You’re either unable to understand the answers or not prepared to accept them.

Either way, it’s on you.

“Sex with someone who doesn’t want it to happen”

Fair enough. So why would you not remind your son about enthusiastic consent?

Rapists rape. They always will. A tiny number of men are rapists. A tiny number of women rape.

Do you think any rapist has ever had their minds changed because their parents reminded them of consent?

You are making that rookie mistake of thinking that all rapes are ugly guys in a trench coat waiting in the bushes with a knife waiting to pounce on a virgin who is out jogging.

What about the men who are having sex with a practically unconscious woman who is lying there pretty much unresponsive, who thinks 'hmmm, I'm not sure she is up for this but I'm here now so I'll crack on'? What about those rapists?

Oh and women can't be convicted of rape. Not in this country anyway.

Since it’s apparently an area of confusion, this is the legal definition of rape.

Stunned that this even needs to be clarified tbh, but here it is.

Oh and I think it says everything that you are apparently so closed to the news and current affairs that you can't think of any examples of men harming women and victim blaming occurring..... but you can come up with Asia Argento.

And to clarify women can be convicted of rape, but only as an accessory eg. Holding someone down. A penis has to be present for it to be rape.

Actually what became very effective in publicity for drunk driving was the campaigns which showed the punishment that the offender would incur (lost licence, lost job, name in paper)

On the basis most people don’t believe they are going to kill someone, but admit to a fair chance of a random breathalyser

We need similar for rape. And some examples made public

What made drink driving campaigns so successful was the fact it was made socially unacceptable to drink and drive.

If it was made socially unacceptable to have sex a wasted drunk woman it would go a long way towards solving part of a problem.

But using the example of a famous footballer above, I doubt it’s going to happen any time soon.