I don't agree this is victim blaming

[TeeJay1970]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-45232993

I know what victim blaming is so there is no need to define it for me.

Surely this is just good advice?

The police have had to apologise for encouraging

"friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group"

Isn't that what good friends do?

@drastard

What? Accidental rape? No one, without malice, can accidentally rape.

And there lies the heart of the problem, your misconception that rape can only be committed forcefully and maliciously.

Rape is sex without consent, that’s all, period.

The attitude or motivation of the perpetrator is irrelevant. That’s why we need to teach our sons about the boundaries of consent, and that consent is more than the absence of a woman screaming “No!” at the top of their voice whilst scrambling to get away.

If a man believes this is the definition of consent (as you appear to) then it is all to easy to see how he could rape a woman who is drunk to the point of incoherence, or a frightened woman who freezes as a result of previous bad experiences..... The man need not be doing this maliciously, just selfishly and thoughtlessly, oblivious to the consent issues involved.

@BarnabyBungle

You think there's accidental rape? You think anyone is confused about what rape is?

Yes, I think we've found the heart of the problem!

You're muddying the waters with comments like "if she is passive and doesn’t actively engage". How active is active? How passive for it to become rape?

Consent needs to be clearly and unambiguously given, verbally and/or physically. If there is any reasonable doubt in the man’s mind on this, he should not start or continue sex.

No it doesn't. It shows that we advise people to keep safe. Targeted advice is a good thing. Advice, not blame. Advice!

No one has actually managed to give any advice that keeps women safe in a way which doesnt actually involve them it going out all.

I'm all ears.

Walking is out-its advertising

Taxis are out

Ubers are out

Walking home with male friends is out

Drinks can be spiked. Even soft drinks.

Going to the loo or the bar is out. Leaves someone alone.

When walking friemds home someome always has to be the last one and he alone.

Night clubs are out cos you get searched in the queues and that means a friemd may be left alone inside waiting or in the queue still.

Oh and carrying wads of cash is out cos they might get mugged for the money but not carrying cash means they have to go to the cash point which means going out alone in the dark late at night...

I want to hear an acceptable course of events that will not lead to a single question about the woman's responsibility for what happens.

So drastard can I just clarify that your stance is that men who rape were basically born that way, that there is nothing that could be done to change things, that the way they were brought up (particularly with regards to the way they view women) has nothing to do with any of it, and that men raping women at the rate at which they do is just an inevitability?

You think there's accidental rape? You think anyone is confused about what rape is?

Yes, I absolutely do think it is possible for a man to rape a woman without realising he has, precisely because they believe rape is only a forceful act or violence.

@drastard You obstinate insistence that rape can only be perpetrated by “bad men” who violently force themselves on screaming women is dangerous and perpetrates the issues we still have with rape.

You remind me of the dinosaurs who used to insist than a man could not possibly rape his wife, because, you know, she was his wife and sex was his right.

Now that’s a clear example of where rape occurred and the perpetrators had no idea they had raped.

@BarnabyBungle

What's physical consent. Luckily for me (I guess) DH thought him passing out under me when we were having drunken sex was hilarious.

I stopped when I noticed, for what it's worth.

Do you think I raped him?

@Gileswithachainsaw

"I want to hear an acceptable course of events that will not lead to a single question about the woman's responsibility for what happens."

You just gave a lot of them, Giles. What about those happening would make you question a woman's responsibility.

You're confused about the difference between giving advice to lower the chance of being a victim and blaming the victim.

Do you get it yet?

@BarnabyBungle

x-post

"You remind me of the dinosaurs who used to insist than a man could not possibly rape his wife"

Well, in line with the women who somehow seem happy about the fact that in this country women can't rape men, those men weren't raping their wives.

Those are the bloody questions asked every time.

Why was she out on her own
Where was her friend
Why would you walk home with a man
What was she wearing etc

When that awful story about that poor 14 year old who was raped twice, one of which was the taxi driver.

All the first comments were about why she was out so late on her own. Erm shed spent hours being raped that's sodding why.

That list... They are all things people say. In court ge r underwear would he used to try and prove she wanted it. He fact she didn't scream meant she was in to it...

Do you not get it

I find the obsession with women raping men a little odd, to be honest.

@BertrandRussell

"I find the obsession with women raping men a little odd, to be honest."

How am I obsessed? The two times I've mentioned it, it's been relevant.

I find your obsession with rape a little odd. It's guaranteed that you'll appear on any thread discussing it.

What makes me mad on these threads is posters who seem incapable
of having two ideas in their head at the same time. It's not either/or. I agree with Barnaby.

Of course it's the rapist or the thief who commits the crime. But it's also a good idea to try to minimise your chances of being the victim of that crime. So don't leave your laptop on the passenger seat of an unlocked car or your bag open on the tube or get so drunk and incapable that you go off with some random you've met in a bar that normally you wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

It doesn't need some nit-picking intellectual debate or amount to a betrayal of your feminist principles to take some responsibility to what happens to you through your carelessness. It's just common sense.

It doesn't need some nit-picking intellectual debate or amount to a betrayal of your feminist principles to take some responsibility to what happens to you through your carelessness. It's just common sense

Again..how does a woman go out in a way that's not careless by their very presence? How does the last one get home?

You think there's accidental rape? You think anyone is confused about what rape is?

Of course there is confusion. Its why there are lots of qualifiers in court about 'reasonable belief in consent' and why juries can take days to decide if, based on the evidence, a set of circumstances constitutes rape.

It's not actually the definition of rape that causes the confusion though, it's the definition of consent.

Again you are thinking of the 'holding her down while she screams NO' scenario aren't you?

Like I said upthread, what about the guy who is with an unresponsive female, knows she isn't into it because she is almost unconscious but decides to go ahead anyway? Because you know, she went back with him, they are both there, she isn't saying no and well...what harm can it do right?

What's physical consent. Luckily for me (I guess) DH thought him passing out under me when we were having drunken sex was hilarious.

The definition of rape is “sex without consent”. Someone who is passed out cannot give consent. The fact you stopped when you realised and that your DH thought it was hilarious means the dynamics of your relationship mean it’s clearly not an issue, let alone a crime worthy of reporting.

However, to imply that because your DH found it hilarious, having sex with someone whilst someone is passed out isn’t a problem is appalling.

FIrst comment sums it up with me. Of course I have given my own dd a good deal of stay-safe advice over the years: that's part of my responsibility as a parent.

But then the police focus their campaign on women's responsibility to make sure their friends don't get raped rather than men's responsibility to make sure their friends don't get to rape anyone, that does seem to send a message about what angle the police would look at you if you ever turned up at the station to report a rape.

At the very least, the societal message is "why should men be inconvenienced by having to keep an eye on their friends?"

Women know that they should be curbing their own behaviour.

Wtaf? Women don't rape. Men do. It's male behaviour that has to change.

And every mother of sons should be talking to them about consent, and alcohol, and drugs. That's every bit as important as talking to daughters about drinking and drugs, and looking out for their mates.

"It doesn't need some nit-picking intellectual debate or amount to a betrayal of your feminist principles to take some responsibility to what happens to you through your carelessness."
Yep-bloody careless going out with an unlocked vagina. Should have been left safely at home.

bert this is all just because by saying this stuff by are somehow trying to make themselves believe that to being happen to them because they were "sensible"

Yeah good luck with that.

Wtaf? Women don't rape. Men do. It's male behaviour that has to change.

That was me who said that upthread. I was being obtuse, when I said 'should be' I meant 'have to because no one expects men to change their behaviour'.

I agree with you. And the poo pooing of the idea that parents should be talking to their kids about consent is a big part of the problem.

@BarnabyBungle

You can't on one hand say that my husband behaved / thinks / acts appallingly but also that the dynamics of the relationship mean I did nothing wrong.

Have you ever read about an alleged rape and wondered if it was rape or not? I think rape is straight forward.

I wouldn't really have a problem with advice about 'staying safe at night' directed towards women, if it ran alongside a big campaign aimed at men about consent.

But that doesn't seem to happen. Rapers gonna rape. NAMALT. There is no point educating boys about consent.

@corythatwas

Now you're blaming a rapist's friends? @Bertrand and someone else blame parents (vaguely).

I don't know how you can whilst on the other hand say that the police giving advice is blaming the victim. They seem mutually exclusive viewpoints.

Again..how does a woman go out in a way that's not careless by their very presence? How does the last one get home?

It’s about minimising unnecessary risk not removing it entirely.

This doesn’t in any reduce the culpability of the rapist.

The issue with consent is the blurred lines that exist when you get very drunk. Drunk sex isn’t necessarily rape and can be, and often is, enthusiastically entered into by both parties. The problem comes when ‘being merry’ drunk slips into paralyticly drunk. It can be clear cut (ie the person had passed out) but often less so. When both man and woman is drunk then judgment is impaired on both sides, and it can very difficult to be clear on consent. That’s why I’ll be advising that neither my son or daughter get too drunk, and that if in any doubt about consent, they should assume consent hasn’t been given.

“You can't on one hand say that my husband behaved / thinks / acts appallingly but also that the dynamics of the relationship mean I did nothing wrong.”

When you realized he had passed out you stopped. If you hadn’t, what you did was sexual assault.