I don't agree this is victim blaming

[TeeJay1970]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-45232993

I know what victim blaming is so there is no need to define it for me.

Surely this is just good advice?

The police have had to apologise for encouraging

"friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group"

Isn't that what good friends do?

Because when you think about it, when rape becomes something that isn't commumitted by some dark shadowy figure waiting outside night clubs or in the underpass or the alley between MacDonalds and Greg's it stops being something committed by some rate messed up violent abusive man that none if us know, to being our husbands or friends sons etc people. It's something that when we all think about it, more of us than willing to admit have experienced things that go beyond an accident or misunderstanding and into territory we don't want to admit to.

This. A million times this.

Haven’t rtft but this jumped out at me

“I don't know a single person who would defend a rapist”

Except whenever there’s a thread on MN by someone who has been raped there are always rape apologists.
When someone has been raped someone will ask if they were drunk or what they were wearing, or whether they were leading the man on.
Most people I know were brought up to question the female role in rape, and then some relearn this as an adult, and some continue to blame the woman on some level, and it’s all perpetuated by victim blaming adverts like this.

Yup

When I was a youngster, drink driving was very common. It was seen as something to be accepted that was just how things were.

People made excuses about how unfortunate the drunken drivers were to have accidents or how the other drivers were daft to be in that area at that time when they didn't have to be because everyone knows that's when you are likely to encounter a drunk driver. Smart drivers never got into a crash with a drunk driver because they knew how to identify, swerve, avoid. Only dumbass pedestrians, passengers and drivers suffered, apart from the odd horrific situation where it was clear the drunk driver was 100% in the wrong and nobody else had done anything daft.

I got lots of advice on how to avoid situations where drunk drivers were likely, the importance of not getting into a car with a driver who had been drinking (though this was widely recognised as being tricky because s/he might be a very good driver and can hold their drink and hasn't had that much really and might take offence and how will I get home and everyone is getting in and how dare I accuse them of planning to crash, etc.)

As I got older I saw different campaigns starting up, targetting the impossible problem of drink driving.

The advice to pedestrians, passengers and other drivers on how to stay safe is still given and is still valid.

The addition of a massive campaign against drink drivers changed the culture, changed the tone, changed behaviours and saved shitload of lives.

The campaigns made it socially unacceptable to drink drive, educated people on how low the alcohol threshold is for it to count as drink driving, told people that they might think they are not a drink driver after a couple of pints but yes they are and no matter how much they whine about stupid laws that the police will be looking out for them, they are likely to get caught and will get punished.

Right now I see the how not to get raped advice as being like the how not to be in a crash involving a drink driver. Very sensible.

I don't see the equivalent and bigger campaign to teach boys and men the equivalent of how not to be a drink driver.

That's why I get cross at the campaigns telling me not to go out alone at night. Where's the other fucking campaign!

“I don't know a single person who would defend a rapist”

Anyone who suggests that girls should think about what they are wearing or doing or drinking is defending rapists.

Statistically men are far more likely to be the victim of violent crime than women are yet you never hear men being told to keep themselves safe and to take responsibility. Funny that.

It makes far more sense to advise men to stay in and be wary than it does to advise women to do so. The majority of perpetrators of violent crime are men and the majority of victims are also men.

By advising men to stay in it means we protect those who would have fallen victim to crime and means the violent ones won't be out. It's really a win win situation

Drinking oneself into a complete stupor should not be normalised as part of ‘a good night out’. If you found someone in that state on any other drug you would think that they needed treatment.

Clearly drunken people do need looking after but maybe, if incapable, and over a certain blood alcohol level (clearly higher than for driving), they should be charged for the care they receive from the emergency services.

It is not infantilisation to ask people to behave like responsible adults, in fact quite the reverse.

The police’s job is both to apprehend criminals and to prevent crime. A dual approach seems quite sensible.

Statistically men are far more likely to be the victim of violent crime than women are yet you never hear men being told to keep themselves safe and to take responsibility. Funny that

Men don't want other men bare foot and pregnant at home or back in the kitchen. That's basically where it's all headed

Looking out for each other was normal during my college and uni days, you made sure no one got separated from the group and everyone got home ok, usually the last two left on the walk back would stay over together so one was not left out alone. If anyone found them self in an iffy situation their mates would help, my flat mate got rid of a lad who was being too persistent with me once. I do think just from observation (and hope I'm wrong) that often people are less likely to look out for each other now. It's a generalisation and doesn't excuse anyone harming someone in any way but an interesting social observation.

I do think just from observation (and hope I'm wrong) that often people are less likely to look out for each other now. It's a generalisation and doesn't excuse anyone harming someone in any way but an interesting social observation

I will always try and look out for my friends. However people grow up and have families. They have jobs. They have different ideas if fun.

Why should men get to spontaneously have a pint or 10 star work and get a can home while women have to book time off, save up money for hotel rooms or arrange sleep overs like teenagers just to go out onve in a while and still have it all be for nothing when the designated driver who's stayed sober all night still get groped at the petrol station...

I'd say it is victim blaming but not hateful victim blaming. I say this because:

1. It's assuming women are always with other women. How about if they are out on their own or if with guy friends?

2. It's not suggesting men stick together in case they get mugged or beaten up. If they recommend both then it lessens the vulnerable woman message.

However there is the third point that is it's not targeting the perpetrators of these crimes which it isn't. Thing is unless you're usually a nice guy who read the cues wrong when drunk (obviously still not great but if he just touched a ladies butt or kissed her due to this, I'd not find him predatory). But if you have an entitled man or an actual predatory man telling him not to do it is not effective.

With that in mind all that can be done is harsher sentencing when it does occur, making it easier for victims to come forward and unfortunately editing victim behaviour. It's a fucking shame but as it is I'd rather be pissed off and do it and make myself less available than flippant, defiant and get in a dangerous situation. But it's absolutely crap we have to do it in the first place.

But you can't convince someone predatory not to be, because that's what they enjoy.

Let's be honest rape like violence is inbuilt in men biologically from robs ago. We are just intelligent animals.

If I saw a naked man alone on the pavement who was attractive and alone I'd either walk away or check he was OK if I felt it was safe. I would not take advantage and neither would 98% of women I'd imagine.

Men however, I expect if they honestly saw nobody and wasn't likely to be caught it would be a 50/50 split maybe closer to 75/25 in favour of assaulting, mocking etc the woman.

I know that makes me some terribly cynical but it makes some sense. Instead, I think women should be allowed pepper spray.

I also think that a woman should be allowed to use martial arts or another self defence method if they deem they feel they need it and not be prosecuted for it.

I could not tell you a time I did not get punished or told off for sticking up for myself. I'm sure many women concur.

I absolutely hate the phrase 'victim blaming'. Teaching people to take some responsibility for their safety is not victim blaming. Teaching women that getting drunk and being alone and vulnerable is not victim blaming. Of course men shouldn't rape women, that's bloody obvious, but until that message sinks in, then we all have to take some responsibility for our own safety. I have a DS and will be teaching him to respect women, but I'll also be teaching him that if someone is trying to goad you in a bar that you walk away. There's no point saying after someone has been raped that men should no better, when it's a very real likelihood that a woman walking down a dark alley alone when drunk is going to fall victim to a man who has no problems with taking advantage of a situation. Better that she were never alone and vulnerable in the first place.

It's sensible advice.

It seems there are always some who miss the point.

Drinking oneself into a complete stupor should not be normalised as part of ‘a good night out’.

Brilliant, except the times I have been raped, I was sober, they were sober, it was in my own house, it was by a "friend"
So not getting drunk and stuporous would not have prevented my rapes.
Stop telling anyone they can't get drunk if they want to. You are not their mother.

It's sensible advice.

It seems there are always some who miss the point.

Yes but far as I can see, women know this stuff as if by osmosis from a young age, from experience, from being told by friends/parents etc
Why not just turn this around. Let's blame the men, let's advertise that men commit rape, most assaults, let's get men to never be alone. Always with friends, after all if they never leave the group of friends, they can't ever commit rape.
Why is this not ever said, why do women have to alter behaviour.

@Flooffloof

"Stop telling anyone they can't get drunk if they want to."

Not you can't, that you shouldn't and this has nothing to do with the culpability of the rapist.

Some people should listen to their mothers more.

Being drunk is nothing to do with anything, and telling women to not get drunk absolves the rapists (presumably sober enough to rape!) of responsibility.

"telling women to not get drunk absolves the rapists (presumably sober enough to rape!) of responsibility."

That's an awful thing to say. How can you possibly think this? The law and anyone with vaguly acceptable morals wouldn't say so.

These threads are always have the same predictably stupid replies. Something along the lines of "why not tell rapists not to rape"

I have never, ever heard of a rapist being told that they can rape. Have you? Taking steps to keep yourself safe is not the same as absolving the perpetrator of responsibility.

Wear bright clothing at night time if walking on the road. Don't cross at a blind corner. Don't get too drunk to walk safely. Don't wear a Cardiff City to the Millwall end of a football game. Cycle with a helmet. Don't drink home-distilled alcohol. Don't eat moldy ham. Don't tell a big, stong, gobby, drunken person in a pub that their Mum's got a face like a smacked arse etc.

Do you get it yet?

I have never, ever heard of a rapist being told that they can rape. Have you? Taking steps to keep yourself safe is not the same as absolving the perpetrator of responsibility

Telling women they shouldn’t get drunk is part of it, it’s not my fault you can’t understand that.

Are they told it’s wrong? Do they know what rape is? Apparently not. And when you’ve got women being murdered and the news coverage blames her somehow you should be able to deduce that society always blames women somehow.

@YeTalkShiteHen

Part of what? You're not saying anything that could be understood.

We tell people that getting drunk puts them in a vulnerable position.

"Are they told it’s wrong? Do they know what rape is? Apparently not."

Apparently. A word which basically means 'I'm not sure what is fact but this suits my agenda'.

Murderers know murder is wrong. Drunk drivers know drink driving is wrong. Women who kill their children know it's wrong. Some people know that what they are doing is outside the law.

Do you think a campaign telling everyone that murder is bad would reduce murder rates? This isn't a false equivalence and I'm interested in your answer.

News coverage doesn't blame murder victims or rape victims (men are more likely to be murdered, by the way).

"you should be able to deduce that society always blames women somehow."

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or you're hard of thinking or you're living up to your moniker. Why should I 'be able to deduce' anything and from what? If the premise of your argument is incorrect then anything following it will be shite, hen!

Women are blamed for their own rapes and murders all the bloody time. ALL the time.

@Putyourdamnshoeson

So it would be really easy for you to give some examples. REALLY easy.

I have never, ever heard of a rapist being told that they can rape. Have you?

Yes. All the time.

Was she wearing provocative clothing? Had she had a lot to drink? Has she had a lot of previous sexual partners? Did she go back to yours willingly? Was she passive when she could have screamed? Well it's not reeeeeeeaaaaallllllly rape then is it?