To feel sorry for this lady?

[Spanglylycra]

Two of my male friends are having a baby via surrogate due later this year.I know they will make great parents and this isn't an anti-gay thread at all. The baby is via donor egg implanted into the surrogate who has no biological relationship. However (my AIBU) I can't help feeling sad for the surrogate. I know she is a grown woman capable of making her own decision and has gone into this willingly but she doesn't know them and doesn't owe them anything and despite payment being illegal in the UK there is still a very large "expenses" payment made which is well into 5 figures. So despite the fact they will be amazing parents I just feel sad/uncomfortable about the woman's role in this. On one hand they talk positively about her being amazing and selfless and on the other hand refer to her "just carrying it" which makes me sad for women being used as a vessel - it's a bit Handmaid-esque. Their social media posts are also starting to be covered in #dontforgetaboutdads and I just feel like the woman's role is being cut out. Just wondered what others may think am I over thinking this?!

I don’t think bodies can or should be bought and sold - I don’t agree with prostitution or with selling organs for donation - so I don’t agree with surrogacy on an ethical level.

But I would never voice this to a surrogate or a couple using one, and I recognise that choices aren’t made in a vacuum for either party.

There was a short segment onsurrogacy on the One Show last night. They showed a surrogate who was having a baby for a couple where the woman could not carry a child due to cancer treatment.

So, all this stuff about poor women and rich men is nonsense.

They will have to adopt to both be recognised

How so?

Adoption and surrogacy are completely different legal processes

Surrogacy involves the surrogate being registered as the legal mother. If she is married then her husband is registered as the baby legal father. If she isn't, then the intended father goes on the birth certificate.

The parental order process can be commenced a minimum of 6 weeks after the child is born and within a maximum of 6 months. A CAFCASS officer is appointed and the process goes through the family court. When a parental order is granted, the intended parents become the legal parents and a birth certificate is issued accordingly

Adoption has nothing to do with it. Totally different processes. Where are you getting that from?

I don’t think bodies can or should be bought and sold - I don’t agree with prostitution or with selling organs for donation - so I don’t agree with surrogacy on an ethical level.

Commercial surrogacy is not permitted in the UK. Expenses have to be deemed 'reasonable' and CAFCASS can and do ask to inspect a breakdown of expenses claimed

Expenses have to be claimed otherwise it's considered to be exploitation if a surrogate is out of pocket as a result.

The surrogate isn't paid a fee as in other countries. The expenses have to be accounted for in the UK. They can't sell their body, and a body can't be bought

And I say this as someone who is infertile and cannot carry her own children.

So considering your views, you won't be using a surrogate to have a family then?

Few hospitals will even allow a surrogate to hand over a baby on hospital premises (to most surrogates frustration). If a surrogate wants 'her' baby she can certainly fulfil this desire. So difficult to see how she is being deprived of a child.

If the baby has to go into SCBU the surro may have to be the one to sign all the consents - in the case of a friend, her baby was in SCBU for a couple of months, and the surro wanted to get on with her life, but couldn't because the medical staff were constantly having to contact her as the legal mother to get her permission for all treatment, instead of the intended parents (who were the ones sitting by the incubator with their baby)

Most surros I've spoken to would prefer pre birth orders to be available as an option for those surros who would prefer.

I suppose I do understand that to adopt through the normal channels would be time consuming and that it is very, very unlikely nowadays, due to the processes involved, that anyone could adopt a tiny baby. But I still think, why not adopt instead of using a surrogate.

The children most likely in need of homes are often children with very complex needs. They are likely to have been in the care system for a number of years. They may well have suffered years of abuse and neglect. They have frequently stayed in neglectful and abusive home situations for far too long often resulting in severe attachment issues. They are very likely to have experienced trauma and may have lifetime issues as a result.

They need to go to homes which contains the specialised skills sets to support these children. A couple who has not been able to have any children of their own might be ill equipped to deal with children who fit into these categories.

Very very strong stable parents with great support networks who are able to cope with very complex needs are the answer to adopted children

Adoption is about giving a child a home, not an infertile couple a child

Reasons why infertile couples I've known have been rejected as adopters

Too old
Not the right ethnicity
Not the right religion
Don't already have children
Self employed
Both partners work
Rent not own
Have debt
Any current or previous mental health issues
Any current or previous physical health issues
Have a dog
Difficult childhood
No family close by
Not enough outside space
Not enough bedrooms
Any previous relationship issues

Most parents wouldn't get approved to adopt their own children!

A friend is going through the adoption process and most of the couples in her cohort have dropped out because the process of being torn to shreds by social workers was so emotionally gruelling

The support given to adopters can be woeful and the number of adoptions that break down is heartbreaking

Furthermore, the number of prospective adopters far outstrips the number of children available for adoption. It's really not as simple as 'why don't you just adopt'

So fair enough in the rare case that a woman really is happy to rent her womb out and/or give away an egg (similarly with sperm donors) for completely altruistic purposes.

What of the child that egg/sperm is going to grow into though? That would be pretty mind numbing to think that someone grew you, you came from someone else's egg and/or someone's else's sperm was used to fertilise that. Those people potentially unknown to the child. I think it's also a rare case that surrogates have a meaningful relationship with the child as they grow up.

I wonder if that child would have preferred to have both providers of its DNA (and the person whose womb nurtured it) bringing it up from a psychological and emotional standing?

I suppose that's trumped by the wants of the adults though.

Honestly normalising this stuff = worlds gone mad.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

I wonder if that child would have preferred to have both providers of its DNA (and the person whose womb nurtured it) bringing it up from a psychological and emotional standing?

They wouldn’t have been born though.

Yes. She has complete rights. The intended parents have no legal rights

In practice it's exceptionally rare for this to happen. Most surros I have spoken to find the idea nuts - they say that if they wanted another baby they would have their own baby, they don't want someone else's!

Most surros I've spoken to find the law doesn't protect them against the other way. The intended parents having no rights doesn't offer them any protection if they were to change their mind. Which again, in practice, doesn't happen. But legally it's a possibility of course.

Most women can't imagine carrying a baby for 9 months and not feeling a maternal bond. I certainly can't. I absolutely couldn't be a surrogate (even if I were able to - which I can't, the only way we could have a baby would be through surrogacy, as my womb can't sustain a pregnancy). It's why only a very small number of women would consider being a surrogate. I certainly couldn't get my head around the concept. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to go through the experience of pregnancy and birth for someone else!

Those surros who I've spoken to say they found the experience of a surrogacy pregnancy entirely different to their pregnancies with their own children. They've told me they absolutely love being pregnant and being able to help another couple have a family. They love being pregnant but say they don't want a baby at the end of it! They've told me their children are their world, and they can't imagine not having been able to have a family. And that they love being able to help another couple to have a family, and bring a much wanted and deeply loved child into the world

I still can't get my head around it. But I've seen so many incredible journeys and amazing friendships between surros and IPs in the last 18 months in the UK surrogacy community. Many surros are godparents - there's a lifelong bond. Lots of surros will do sibling journeys with their IPs

Sorry PP in response to

What is the law on this?if she bonds with the baby and decided to keep it ,could she?

I think it's also a rare case that surrogates have a meaningful relationship with the child as they grow up.

Curious how you know this? That's certainly not the experience of most surros I've spoken to in the UK surrogacy community. Would be happy to be put straight if you have more reliable information however

What of the child that egg/sperm is going to grow into though?

Well have you spoken to any of these children? The rest of your post shows the answer is, clearly not.

This is clearly commercial surrogacy which I believe is exploitative. She's not incurred expenses of over £10k

Wow.
I am actually in this position right now, except that the Dads in question don’t use social media much and haven’t even announced the pregnancy online.

I’m doing it as a lesbian parent who wouldn’t have children without the help of another, wonderful gay man. This is my way of ‘paying it forward’ within my community.

Whilst I do receive expenses and don’t earn as much as the fathers, I am certainly not in it for the money!
We went via an agency who assessed our suitability, made both couples have counselling and rigorous health checks.

I went into this with my eyes wide open and my wife and children are supporting me all the way.

I even wrote a blog post on the subject - thewownetwork.co.uk/lisa-wow/bye-bye-baby

reduces babies as something to 'aquire' rather than made with love by two people who want them

Producing offspring is selfish human instinct necessary for the survival of the species - please don't kid yourself that "love" is at work here.

Also reduces babies as something to 'aquire' rather than made with love by two people who want them.

Do you think this applies to all babies not conceived “naturally”?

Also reduces babies as something to 'aquire' rather than made with love by two people who want them.

Rubbish. The baby at the center of the short piece on the One Show was very much made with love.

Also reduces babies as something to 'aquire' rather than made with love by two people who want them. Slightly different if done within a family i guess.

How about made with love by three people who dearly want the child?

If my pregnancies had been successful, then our baby would have been made with love by my husband and I

My friend offered to be a surrogate to help us have a family. If we had been able to proceed, then any future child would have been made from the same batch of embryos.

So if I'd been able to carry our baby, it would have been made with love by two people who want them . But if my friend were to carry our baby, looking after him or her with love and care for 9 months, that same child would not have been made with love?

Even though they'd been conceived by the same two parents, and so deeply loved and wanted that they had been brought into this world thanks to the the incredible gift of a surrogate mother - so wanted not just by 2 people, but by 3?

And FWIW the baby I am carrying has been made by 4 people, as the egg donor is related to the non-bio Dad. I would also be annoyed at anyone calling me Mum or the Mother - I am the caretaker, my family is complete

While I agree with others posts that the creation of babies via surrogacy or gamete donation for people who love each other is no different from a baby created through straightforward sex... as the great Tina Turner asked, what's love got to do with it?

All people - even the happily, heterosexually married ones - want babies for purely selfish reasons. Full stop.

The best we can hope is that they are going to provide a loving home for them. People who've had to struggle to 'acquire' those babies through means other than a quick shag are already showing how much those babies are desperately wanted and you've got to think that is a good foundation for a 'loving home'.

What is available to children of surrogacy is a couple of parents who are absolutely batty about them from the moment they are born.

Maybe. No more than in a relationship where biological mother and father welcome the birth of their baby. And possibly less sometimes, as one of the parents won't be related to the new baby at all. It is interesting that both partners become the legal parents without adoption.

Do surrogates always use another woman's egg? I also wonder if most surrogates are more impoverished or if they tend to be used in countries where there is more poverty.

Maybe. No more than in a relationship where biological mother and father welcome the birth of their baby.

Judging by the number of MN threads where deadbeat partners walk out on pregnant women, apparently not all biological children are brought into those world deeply wanted and loved by both parents

When we went through IVF we went through the emotional, financial and physical commitment of fertility treatment to try and have a baby

We had to complete 'welfare of the child' paperwork for the clinic to judge whether or not they believed we would make suitable parents or not, as is the legal HFEA requirement in the UK

If we were to proceed with surrogacy in the UK, with our frozen embryos, we would have to have mandatory implications counselling, as would a surro and her partner. The case would have to be approved by the clinic's ethics committee

Before a parental order would be granted we would have to be visited by CAFCASS to determine whether we were suitable parents. A parental order would have to be granted by the families court

I'd argue that we would have had to demonstrate tangible proof of our commitment to become parents over and above when a bloke walks out on a pregnant partner, or a one night stand, and makes no contribution whatsoever towards that child other than at the point of ejaculation

And possibly less sometimes, as one of the parents won't be related to the new baby at all.

Why? If we were to have a baby via surrogacy our child would be 100% related to both my husband and I. They would be genetically him and me

Do you say the same thing to the many same sex female couples on MN who have DC? That one partner might love the child less because they aren't related by genetics?

It is interesting that both partners become the legal parents without adoption.

Yes. Because it's surrogacy. Not adoption. This isn't difficult, surely?

Do surrogates always use another woman's egg?

Gestational surrogacy (no genetic relationship between the surro and the baby, conceived via IVF, using another woman's egg - either the egg of the intended mother, or a donor egg) is more common than traditional surrogacy (surro is the genetic mother, conceived via artifical insemination using the intended father's sperm)

I also wonder if most surrogates are more impoverished or if they tend to be used in countries where there is more poverty.

International surrogacy is vastly different to UK surrogacy. You're comparing apples and oranges

UK surrogacy is a world away from surrogacy in the US, or surrogacy in Ukraine or Georgia (which again are worlds apart from each other)

You're lumping entirely different experiences and legal structures in together