To feel sorry for this lady?

[Spanglylycra]

Two of my male friends are having a baby via surrogate due later this year.I know they will make great parents and this isn't an anti-gay thread at all. The baby is via donor egg implanted into the surrogate who has no biological relationship. However (my AIBU) I can't help feeling sad for the surrogate. I know she is a grown woman capable of making her own decision and has gone into this willingly but she doesn't know them and doesn't owe them anything and despite payment being illegal in the UK there is still a very large "expenses" payment made which is well into 5 figures. So despite the fact they will be amazing parents I just feel sad/uncomfortable about the woman's role in this. On one hand they talk positively about her being amazing and selfless and on the other hand refer to her "just carrying it" which makes me sad for women being used as a vessel - it's a bit Handmaid-esque. Their social media posts are also starting to be covered in #dontforgetaboutdads and I just feel like the woman's role is being cut out. Just wondered what others may think am I over thinking this?!

Twisted there are as many who were brought up by birth parents who have no contact with them as adults because they were not provided with love stability or support.

I agree Peak that some people are no contact with their birth families for good reason. What does that have to do with your statement that kids don't care if their caregivers are related to them? And why do you get to speak for kids who weren't raised by their biological parents and tell them both what they feel, and why?

How much screening is given to people who use surrogates, it seems like adoption to me, tho child presumably is biologically related to one of the fathers. They will have to adopt to both be recognised, or one will be step parent.

UK law doesn't permit this for surrogacy

The law doesn't allow for any kind of surrogacy arrangement to be brokered independently

Most surros and IPs would advocate for greater regulation in UK law

But UK law doesn't currently allow for this within current legislation

And the fact that courts have to rightly prioritize safeguarding over biology doesn't mean that being raised by biological family isn't the best outcome for children where possible, or that children aren't impacted by the loss/ removal of their birth families.

I think that being a surrogate for a couple is one of the most loving gifts you can give, if she’s made the decision to do so why read into it any more than that?

Surrogacy is immoral. Adoption is bad enough

Why are you comparing surrogacy with adoption?

OP - my friends now have a pregnant surrogate in the US having used the eggs of another woman. I have thought about it a lot and it is the $$$$$$ thing that makes me feel so uncomfortable, both with egg donation and with surrogacy. As a wholly altruistic gift, as it was supposed to be in the UK I thought, then actually I've got my head round it and can see how positive it can be for the child to understand that someone gave their parents the greatest gift in the world and was done out of pure kindness so that the child could be raised in a loving family. But buying/selling eggs and buying/selling surrogacy just doesn't sit right.

As someone else said, though, good for her but not good for me.

I have the same qualms, OP.

Any woman selling parts of her body is vulnerable. Buying babies is grim.

The question has to be if that surrogate won £35million on the lottery the week before deciding would she still have gone ahead and agreed to be a breathing incubator?

I accept there are a few women who adore the feeling of being pregnant but they are in the minority. Pregnancy is a natural but extremely dangerous and unpredictable business with life long consequences.

Other mammals give birth to young capable of getting up and walking about in minutes, fully formed and on the way to self sufficiency. Human children are born earlier in comparison and utterly dependent on mothers because we evolved to walk upright. The first few months are important for mother and baby and should be respected as a prolonged gestation wherever possible.

Surrogacy is not something I can understand.

Yep you are overthinking it, and the surrogate is quite aware of what she is doing.

Not sure why you're so bothered to be honest.

You don't really understand the situation, OP. Many surrogates are very happy to be doing what they're doing and don't feel 'cut out' at all. They just don't see it like you do.

OP, you also seem unable to understand the idea of someone finding it gratifying to help someone else. Many surrogates really do find it very meaningful and uplifting to do this. That can be the case even if the expenses money is also helpful.

It is perfectly reasonable to be bothered about the commodification of women's bodies and the potential for exploitation involved in surrogacy. There are also examples where surrogates actually don't know the implications of what they are doing including a recent case in the UK, in a supposedly wonderful 'altruistic' arrangement.

TwistedStitch but as i understand it depending on the situation, most SS will first try and work with the family to keep the child with the parents and then arent extended family members favoured over external adoption? Of course this depends on case by case but its obvious to most people that biological links are favoured where possible.

Very 'handmaid's tale.'

What a load of tosh!

No woman is being forced to do it.

@rinabean 's post (on previous page,) is unbelievable.

Cannot believe anyone seriously thinks like that in 2018!

Yes Only I agree, it wasn't me that claimed otherwise.

And speaking to those who are 'feeling sorry' for the baby. I have a close family member who went through surrogacy. The baby was handed to them straight after birth (surrogate's wishes) and from the first feed (ten minutes later) that was the most settled, responsive, attached baby I have ever seen. The bond was amazing. The surrogate had been playing tapes of my relative's voice to the baby (doubt this made much difference to be honest) but my relative encountered none of the 'shock' she'd been expecting from her new baby. Baby girl was quietened instantly by her voice etc.

The surrogate doesn't know the fathers, it's unlikely to be altruistic.

Bollocks. You don't know what you're talking about.

TwistedStitch whoops sorry, read too quick

Hey Rina. I'm an adopted child. Fuck you!

As far as surrogacy, it's legal and regulated where I live. I don't have a problem with it at all as long as all parties are legally protected. I was going to act as surrogate for BFF (her egg/her DH's sperm) as she had been told she would not be able to conceive, nor carry if by some miracle she did. In the end, she did get pregnant and manage to carry (on bedrest from the moment she got her BFP) so I wasn't needed.

What happens if the baby is disabled? Would the couple still want it? What if it's twins and they only want one child?

All this is decided in the contract pre pregnancy.

Any woman selling parts of her body is vulnerable.
A baby is not part of a woman's body. The baby is in a separate area within a woman's body. And the baby is not being 'sold'.

How much screening is given to people who use surrogates
There is no assessment of their parenting skills. Social workers are involved in the parental order process to ensure that the surrogate is making a free choice and that she was not 'paid' (i.e. the fee is covering outgoings related in some way to the pregnancy). Social workers are also appointed by the court to look into the child's health and situation with the IPs. But they are not 'screened' as such and the child is already living with them at that point.

or that children aren't impacted by the loss/ removal of their birth families.
A baby being taken from it's mother isn't good for the baby amongst other things
You have the wrong end of the stick. Most children of surrogacy are not genetically related to the surrogate. They will always be related to at least one of the intended parents. So you are looking (usually) at the effect only of having a different gestational carrier (she will not appreciate you calling her 'mother'!). That is very different to adoption where genetics and often a period of time spent with mum is involved. The research underlines this difference. There isn't research to suggest that children are being harmed by surrogacy.

They will have to adopt to both be recognised
No, this isn't right. The legal partner of the person genetically related to the child is also the new legal parent (and the legal partner of the surrogate was the old legal parent, which is ridiculous).

You are deliberately creating a child to be separated from it's mother
See it that way if you wish. But the reality is that this is not a 'mother' in the sense that she is related to the child (usually) or has any inclination or desire to have a maternal bond. Experienced surrogates have no notion of having this bond and it simply isn't there to be available to the child. What is available to children of surrogacy is a couple of parents who are absolutely batty about them from the moment they are born. That is the reality for the children and it is a very happy, straightforward experience for most children.

heartsease Your description of the role of 'carrying' a baby is so dismissive of the reality of what happens. Women don't carry the baby around in a bag, they literally grow it with their bodies. A symbiotic relationship is created, regardless of whether the egg is the surrogate's. This is what the acceptance of surrogacy does- it reduces a pregnant woman to a 'carrier' and also does mental gymnastics to pretend that the woman who grows and gives birth to a baby isn't its mother.

YANBU. Surrogacy is immoral. Adoption is bad enough but with surrogacy you are deliberately creating a child to be separated from its mother. Most of these "parents" as you've seen are straight up buying a child and often buying rights over the mother for the duration of the pregnancy - this is human trafficking, not becoming a parent.

So if a surro were to carry our child, conceived from my egg and my husband's sperm, and a surro were to be an ongoing part of our child's life, raised by their loving parents and with the woman who carried and birthed them, nurtured them for 9 months, a part of their life, you'd prefer that this child didn't exist?

In the UK you can't buy any rights over anyone. The surrogate has complete legal rights throughout. The intended parents have no legal rights at all, until the surrogates gives permission for a parental order to be granted. The surrogate also has no protection in this regard - most surrogates would advocate for greater regulation to ensure the IPs obligations were met). Surrogates don't give up any rights - in other countries yes, but not in the UK

twisted
I do see what you're saying. At the same time, you haven't recognised that this is not a mother in the accepted sense and there is no mental gymnastic needed to turn this into the reality. It is simply the case that the surrogate doesn't see herself as a mother, doesn't want to be the mother, isn't genetically related to the child (in an overwhelming number of cases). You simply can't respond to the situation as if this was a woman who has had a baby in the normal way and now wants to give it up. There is no comparison and you won't gain any further understanding if you insist on seeing it that way.

I certainly wouldn't want to reduce a woman's role in pregnancy but I also don't believe the baby is her organ, which is the statement I was responding to. A baby has separate DNA (in the case of surrogacy, completely separate DNA). A surrogate carrying a child for intended parents is nothing like someone selling a kidney.

However I will happily agree that the potential for exploitation in surrogacy is there, as it is in a great many transactions. I would like to see the law catching up and paying attention because at the moment the laws affecting surrogacy were actually written to protect women having IVF, with the result that they're actively unhelpful in protecting anyone in a surrogacy situation.

The intended parents have no legal rights at all, until the surrogates gives permission for a parental order to be granted.

This is very true and there is a cooling off period of six months before the surrogate can sign. Few hospitals will even allow a surrogate to hand over a baby on hospital premises (to most surrogates frustration). If a surrogate wants 'her' baby she can certainly fulfil this desire. So difficult to see how she is being deprived of a child.