SIL has not vaccinated my nieces

[Pittcuecothecookbook]

My baby has been booked in for her vaccinations soon. I asked my sister in law, who has primary school aged kids, about the experience and I was flabbergasted when she said she didn't get their jabs. I can't quite believe it!

When I asked why, she said the risks outweighed the pros but she struggled to articulate what the risks were beyond 'potential death'. I said that that was also the downside of not getting the jabs too! She said she was persuaded when her friend said that the jabs couldn't be undone if her kids had a reaction.

AIBU to be shocked and quite disappointed about this? I'm not looking forward to it by any means, but the eradication of many awful diseases and protection against those still prevalent is surely a non negotiable?

When her kids don't get these diseases, she'll be vindicated but that will likely be because the majority have had their jabs rather than proving jabs were unnecessary.

I imagine I'll get over this - my child will be protected - but I'm just at hearing this news.

I would keep,y child away from hers until mine had all vaccinations. Her stupidity could kill your child - as long as yours isn’t fully vaccinated (13 months), yours relies on herd immunity

Add on: I have a friend who’s deaf thanks to measles. Another lost a leg due to meningitis. Both my cousins have disfiguring scaring thanks to chickenpox. A friends newborn got infected with measles. 2 months icu, thankfully he survived. They are all still alive, but vaccinations would have made things a lot easier

Is it though?

What about rubella? It’s a disaster if you are pregnant.

We all had it as kids - mild illness and better in a few days. Usually life long immunity to rubella so when pregnant there is no risk.

Yet all these kids who received the MMR are lookingat waning immunity when they become pregnant. This isn’t a good thing!

I wish to god we had just left rubella as a normal childhood illness and offered a vaccine to women at age 20 who had missed it

Who says their disease is less severe? How do they know? Mumps is usually fairly benign anyway! I remember having it

I am 100 per cent behind certain vaccines like tetanus but I think the balance has gone too far. I also wonder if the childhood diseases we all had were a kind of primer for our immune systems and whether that is why so many allergies are now increasing

Called
Well I had rubella as a child and had no immunity left when I was tested (and I was pregnant at the time, so too late to vaccinate).
The same goes for many, many women who were not vaccinated against rubella as children. Your facts are wrong.

Mumps can make boys infertile. Have fun explaining to your son that you chose for him to risk becoming infertile because you didn’t believe in science

I also wonder if the childhood diseases we all had were a kind of primer for our immune systems and whether that is why so many allergies are now increasing
I am always intrigued by this kind of reasoning. Why are the vaccines the cause of allergies? How about the exaggerated standards of cleanliness some people have? Or the huge number of chemicals children are exposed to: cleaning products, washing powders, fabric softeners, suncreams, pesticides in food, pesticides and fungicides on clothing, food additives, air fresheners......

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

So your concern is that by stimulating an immune response (making the immune system produce antibodies) we are weakening it? I don't get your point. Vaccines produce generally the same immune response to having the disease.

If there is a link with allergies, why not let actual scientists investigate it rather than just make a totally uninformed guess?

Where has there been an outbreak of rubella?

How do you know it wasn't caused by unvaccinated carriers?

What you are saying appears to be all opinion and no fact. If waning immunity is a problem then the answer is boosters, not allowing people to suffer the (sometimes very serious) consequences of easily preventable diseases. It is far easier to avoid catching rubella as a pregnant woman in a country with herd immunity than in a country that isn't vaccinating. Even a cursory glance at statistics would have told you that.

Some actual facts about rubella instance for you:

"There was a pandemic of rubella between 1962 and 1965, starting in Europe and spreading to the United States.[43] In the years 1964–65, the United States had an estimated 12.5 million rubella cases. This led to 11,000 miscarriages or therapeutic abortions and 20,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome. Of these, 2,100 died as neonates, 12,000 were deaf, 3,580 were blind, and 1,800 were mentally retarded. In New York alone, CRS affected 1% of all births.[47][48]"

"On January 22, 2014, the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Pan American Health Organization declared and certified Colombia free of rubella and became the first Latin American country to eliminate the disease within its borders.[49][50] On April 29, 2015, the Americas became the first WHO region to officially eradicate the disease. The last non-imported cases occurred in 2009 in Argentina and Brazil. Pan-American Health Organization director remarked "The fight against rubella has taken more than 15 years, but it has paid off with what I believe will be one of the most important pan-American public health achievements of the 21st Century."[51] The declaration was made after 165 million health records and genetically confirming that all recent cases were caused by known imported strains of the virus. Rubella is still common in some regions of the world and Susan E. Reef, team lead for rubella at the C.D.C.’s global immunization division, who joined in the announcement, said there was no chance it would be eradicated worldwide before 2020.[7] Rubella is the third disease to be eliminated from the western hemisphere with vaccination after smallpox and polio.[7][8]"

In case it's not blindingly obvious to you, rubella vaccine happened in the middle of those two things.

So what's your point? That you think more pregnant women will catch rubella in a vaccinated country than an unvaccinated country? 100% wrong.

Formula can kill, actually - it's extremely rare for it to happen in a developed country with clean water, good education and healthcare but it could still happen. A child can have an anaphylactic reaction to one of the ingredients (which may also happen with breastmilk but is less likely), or the formula could be contaminated (impossible with breastfeeding) plus children can become dehydrated or suffer water intoxication or malnutrition if powdered formula is consistently made up incorrectly.

I mean yes generally you have to FF wrongly for it to be dangerous whereas coming into contact with a disease is not something under a person's control.

I still have rubella immunity despite being in the cohort who probably only had one or two doses of MMR, not the full course. It's been tested for me in two pregnancies and confirmed. The NHS states that the childhood vaccination course is sufficient for lifetime immunity - there is no "wearing off". Although I don't really understand why other countries recommend boosters if the NHS does not. This is confusing to me.

Bertie, I think the rubella vaccine is much less susceptible to declining immunity. Hence why it has been driven down so dramatically.

Mumps is the one where boosters would be more helpful, and America I think is considering a booster at 18 years old.

You are assuming I have any answers - I don’t!

But that wonderful term “scientists” is pushed out again and again as if magically the answer is to be found. No one really knows why allergies are increasing. Autoimmunity is increasing too. So are most types of cancers and a plethora of health issues.

Perhaps we are swapping the benefits if not having certain infectious diseases for other, chronic conditions?

And before you all start screaming blue murder at me, I’m NOT blaming vaccines for all these ills. But it may be multifactorial and certainly some vaccines are known to trigger some conditions or be implicated. Perhaps it’s the combo of crap diets and lifestyle and cleanliness.

But science doesn’t have the answer and I will continue to ponder the issue

And my husband is completely infertile due to mumps - so I know how severe mumps can be!

Although I don't really understand why other countries recommend boosters if the NHS does not. This is confusing to me.
Because there is a significant number of women who are now longer immune to rubella, despite having been vaccinated or having contracted the disease as children. The NHS does recommend checking your immunity levels if you are ttc.

My DB & SIL haven't vaccinated their kids and it has led to a me and him having an almighty fall out.
For lots of reasons -
my unvaccinated nephew got whooping cough when he was small which made him extremely ill and almost killed him
I am immunosuppressed and have been for the past 20yrs - I am extremely vulnerable to being exposed to these diseases that are easily preventable. I have serious concerns about spending time with them because it is a risk that I will end up in hospital (my own kids are immunised including for CP as this is also dangerous for me)
I have already had TB because my mum decided to skip that immunisation as she didn't want me to have a scar.... I'd rather have had the scar TB was horrible as was the treatment.
They managed to get their dog immunised as it needed them to go to Europe when they went travelling but the kids nope

However my brother has had the lucky side of our genes and has never had a serious illness which has helped support his beliefs in not using traditional medicine - the same goes for his wife.
I however lost that lottery and ended up with 20yrs of a horrible disease that means I have a healthy respect for modern medicine.
Mind you my rationality when talking to him goes out the window when he suggests yet again that I could be cured by drinking cider vinegar and taking turmeric every day - if it was that fucking easy don't you think I'd have been bloody cured by now and I wouldn't be taking medications that control it but with huge side effects!!!

So are most types of cancers and a plethora of health issues.
The reason is simply because we don't die of other diseases before we are old enough to die of cancer, or develop autoimmune diseases.

Well, you did start out by blaming vaccines and questioning their efficacy..So forgive me if I'm suspicious of your "ponderings".

You say that science won't magically find the answer to the cause of increasing incidence of autoimmune disease. What else do you think will?

You appear to be anti science for no real reason.

Ponder all you like, but don't make irresponsible and untrue statements about the efficacy of vaccines in the process.

"And my husband is completely infertile due to mumps - so I know how severe mumps can be!"

The only person who said mumps was "benign" was...You!

That’s utter bollocks best

Rates of cancers are increasing in children and young people.

Allergies anyone? Peanuts? Autoimmunity?

I would like to know what is going on

actuary I said it is “usually” benign. “Usually”. Clearly not for my DH.

That’s the same for any illness, including chicken pox which isn’t routinely vaccinated against.

Well the rate of infant mortality has dropped off a cliff. So that might have something to do with increasing cancer incidence in childhood.

I don't know though. I suspect there must be environmental factors at play. Vaccines seem less likely a cause to me than overcleanliness, where correlation has been shown with allergies and asthma. But I am not a scientist and so I can't really comment with any authority.

called it was reported in the lancet 29th June 1996 that children with a history of natural il Essex’s such as measles mumps and rubella were less likely to suffer allergies in later life...confirmed by researchers at Southampton general hospital x

No-one else said it was benign at all though - usually or otherwise. Only you used that word about mumps.

Illnesses not I’ll Essex!

Cath, you're back! Are you ever going to respond to my questions about your "study"?

Why don't you trust mainstream science?

I've asked you that four times now.