"I see the argument is being given that smallpox was erradicated by the vaccine, therefore every vaccine is good."
That is NOT what was said. What was said was look at this as an example of the good vaccines CAN do.
Blaablaablaa - I think cath is actually very well aware of the source of the "info" she's referencing, and is being deliberately disingenuous in claiming not to be.
Sue - if vaccines even just didn't work what POSSIBLE negative agenda would the govt have in providing and supporting them? What's the bias motivated by?
Sadly it sounds like you've had an experience of an extremely corrupt govt which I can well understand colouring your view. We have our moans about uk govt but for the most part, whatever colour banner, they generally have the populations best interests at heart - they just disagree on what the interests are slightly and how to achieve that.
John Bishop (staunch socialist) was on last leg last week and a story about him ending up doing shots with Cameron came up! He said something like, it suddenly occurred to him that people like Cameron aren't deliberately setting out to hurt people, but that they just don't have the personal experience of govt policy seriously damaging their or their loved ones lives. They're genuinely ignorant to it (but don't realise they are).
You say English is not your first language - but that was only mentioned when what you were saying was challenged. And to be honest as mn themselves say - people aren't always who they claim to be, anyone on here can claim to be a bio-chemist or immunologist or whatever, you've certainly taken long enough to mention it! From my own real life experience I'd be VERY surprised to come across a bonafide traditional scientist who is anti-vax (and that includes scientists/medics from non-English speaking countries).
"I am not for or against vaccinations" I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe particularly given you're posting on THIS thread and what you've posted.
"One thing that has not been mentioned is the more we vaccinate as prevention the more chances of other diseases gaining strength." I have NEVER seen or heard of any evidence of that.
"We already have to combat variants yearly of the flu virus meaning this years vaccine is not the same as last years and so on.
We already see antibiotics having little and no effect in many many cases from over use." Nothing to do with vaccination or 'over use' flu has always mutated regularly - it's why even historically there were times when flu was more dangerous than at others eg Spanish flu. The time I almost died of pneumonia was due to me contracting - pre vaccinations being widely used - a worse than usual flu that was going about.
Vaccinations are also not directly related to our over-cleanliness (which as an OCD sufferer I am well aware of the arguments surrounding this).
"Those are all false analogies, a common rhetorical device known as the slippery slope argument." Or reductio ad absurdum - because it IS absurd!
The debate is that the lady thinks she can tell her sister in law what to do and think it’s that simple.
No the op said NOTHING about op forcing sil to vaccinate! The op asked "Aibu to be shocked and disappointed?" To which most of us answered no, but sadly there are daft people who don't vaccinate cos they've been suckered and scaremongered into believing conspiracy theories and junk science! Op then asked about how to keep her own DC safe due to this knowledge - perfectly reasonable question, not rtft again but I don't think ANYONE said "make your sil vaccinate her kids!"
MairyHole - the nhs website is pretty poorly written generally. The info is usually good but fuck knows what level of education the actual writers are!
I agree - cath and sue are FAR from unbiased.
FieryGinger - while I and I'm sure others are deeply sorry your son is so badly affected by his autism, I'm also very sorry that you lost your other child. However, it's really very highly unlikely vaccination caused it. In addition children who are unvaccinated can sustain extreme brain damage as a result of illnesses like measles. It is not the mild, relatively harmless disease it's seen as by many in a country where most vaccinate and so the more extreme results of unrestrained measles aren't seen or experienced. Again, I am very sorry for your families difficulties. Personally I believe having done some reading on autism (but by no means would claim to be an expert) that we will find in the future the cause is environmental. Eg There's some evidence that it's possibly linked to air pollution or other types of pollution. But that's a whole other debate.
"who time and time again have been found against in courts for suppressing relevant adverse information?" They're hardly going to be taken to court the times they get it right are they?! Which the vast majority of the time they do! If you're going to take the profit argument, no pharmaceutical company who's products are even just ineffective would last long! Let alone one repeatedly proven to be doing harm! Govts are customers too, if they found they were buying products from pharma companies and those products were ineffective or harmful they'd take their money elsewhere!
"I actually have wondered for while if in a few years time, given the blame culture we live in, we see a wave of children suing their own parents for not vaccinating them and them then contracting measles/mumps etc" perhaps not uk so much, but I can see this happening in litigious cultures like USA, probably start in the next few years as the children due to be vaccinated around the time of the mmr controversy reach age of majority and can enlist their own lawyers. Won't be surprised if there's soon if not already, less scrupulous lawyers advertising their services on this basis.
Quibbled vaccine damaged people or their families can already apply to uk govt for compensation.
Star I wrote that and I don't appreciate the unnecessary name calling for giving my opinion (to which I am entitled even if you disagree) and summarising what had been said numerous times on the thread.
I do think (again my opinion) that particularly with such heated, nuanced and emotive debates it is arrogant and ignorant to not rtft before commenting.
"I would much much rather take the risk of measles (often a mild illness along the lines of chickenpox" that's not true, pre-vaccination programmes it was often much more severe, and can result in disablement including brain damage. Prior to vaccination programmes mortality rates were around 10% I believe the mmr mortality rate is 1-2 deaths per MILLION I think WHO Figures.
"Do you all honestly believe that it's just a coincidence that we have huge numbers of autistic children now? Huge numbers." No, I believe personally it's a combination of improved dx/awareness (not least because thankfully we no longer institutionalise the mentally ill or those with learning difficulties JUST for that reason) and another cause, possibly more than one, which we haven't as yet identified. The mmr vaccine was investigated as a possible cause and those studies found it not to be the case.
"A strong immune system, a healthy diet and healthy living is far more beneficial to ward off disease and to fight infections." That may work for many minor infections but not for more serious ones. And very few people actually live a healthy lifestyle.
Even if someone truly believes the mmr is dangerous, there are alternatives eg single vaccination.
I'm very sorry for your brothers difficulties but numerous studies show it's NOT related to mmr.