To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

I can't see that this comment has already been made by someone else but sorry if it has...

Over the last two days, quite a lot of Muslim women have been speaking out about BJ's comments and whatnot. And in most every interview I've seen, they've all made the point that they are not forced to wear a burka and that they don't know any other burka-wearing women who are forced to do so.

In fact the woman on LBC today confirmed she finds the whole question very misogynistic. "You assume that I haven't been given a choice or that I'm incapable of choosing for myself".

I don't know a lot about it and I don't know many burka-wearing women (certainly none that I've had in-depth conversations with about it). But after hearing these interviews, I wouldn't be able to brand it 'oppressive'.

Women may choose to wear the burka but it denies others the accepted Western freedom of being able to see other people properly. Burkas are not just oppressive (or not oppressive) for the wearer, but also for everyone around them.

TBH I hate going to restaurants where there are tables full of burka wearers. It kills the atmosphere!

Burqas always being to mind the John Simpson episode.

My bad. Burkas

BMW6 yes there is a sect within Judaism that does so.

I do believe it is incorrect to associate the whole thing to taliban or whatever. It’s unfair on the women who have made the choice of dressing like that, I would be offended if someone stated I was oppressed due to the way I chose to dress.

Not sure of my view of the full face covering in some situations and not if it is enforced by men but this poem written by a Muslim woman is an interesting viewpoint:

You look at me and call me oppressed,
Simply because of the way I'm dressed,

You know me not for what's inside,
You judge the clothing I wear with pride,

My body's not for your eyes to hold,
You must speak to my mind, not my feminine mold,

I'm an individual, I'm no mans slave,
It's Allah's pleasure that I only crave,

I have a voice so I will be heard,
For in my heart I carry His word,

"O ye women, wrap close your cloak,
So you won't be bothered by ignorant folk",

Man doesn't tell me to dress this way,
It's a Law from Allaah that I obey,

Oppressed is something I'm truly NOT,
For liberation is what I've got,

It was given to me many years ago,
With the right to prosper, the right to grow,

I can climb mountains or cross the seas,
Expand my mind in all degrees,

For Allaah Himself gave us LIBERTY,
When He sent Islam,

To You and Me!

LonelyStranger, as a matter of fact I do agree, I certainly didn't change my name! However, I find this less offensive than being told that women must cover themselves up because they are harlots who will tempt men otherwise. Any and all backwards cutures/religions who ascribe to the view that women are inherently sinful, dirty (particularly for menstruating), or inferior to men should be treated with the same scorn.

While there are oppressed women in the world forced to wear burkas for fear of physical punishment, it beggars belief that anyone with free choice would want to put one one.

Dadshere- I think it’s difficult to understand if you don’t have that belief? It’s not a case of women being sinful, or the ones causing sin (affecting men or whatever), from my understanding, a nun/Muslim woman/Sikh lady who all wear alternate garments do so out of sheer belief. The more devout they are, the more they follow the guidelines (sorry can’t think of a better way to phrase that). So out of her devolution a nun does not marry and so on, a Muslim women wears headscarf (and then some choose to cover their face). I think it’s a way of submitting to what God has prescribed (in trying to explain it best I can without sounding rude/offensive).

If you don’t have that, so for instant an atheist really cannot comprehend that. Like men who do not follow a religion probably find it strange that some religions prescribes men to grow beards (Sikhs/Jews/muslims).

The burkha and niqab seem to be increasingly popular in porn, so maybe for some people it's a sex fetish thing.

Lonelystranger makes perfect sense, thanks.

Curiositycreature I read some interviews that were the same, one woman was doing a PhD in forensic psychology, another was a graduate biochemist, another a geneticist who's learning skydiving, all articulate, successful women all choosing to wear symbols of faith. I read similar articles by women in France who discussed how they decided what to wear, not because of men, but because of how they wanted to express their faith - it was very similar to monks and nuns - it made them feel closer to God. I think it's infantilising to assume that these women are brainwashed or unable to make choices. I also think it's amazing that a straight, white guy thinks it's okay to sound off about women of colour. If he's such a feminist he should talk to Jacob Rees-Mogg about why he believes that even women who have been raped or are victims of incest should not be able to have an abortion. I think it hard to justify telling women what they should or shouldn't wear, I wouldn't like it, why should Muslim women, also if objections are really about feminism or integration how does forcing things achieve that?

Most people adhere to a story about themselves and their place in the world that is partly fictitious and partly unconscious - ie it wouldn’t stand up to forensic examination and testing.. People who adhere to religious beliefs have that as part of their story about themselves. They can only let go of their religious beliefs if something more valuable takes its place in their self-construct.

It is a choice to wear high heels unlike the burqua which is most definitely not a choice for millions of women . However there is an element of girls being socialised into wearing certain clothes / make up to appear attractive / for the benefit to the opposite sex. That is why as parents we need to stop dressing our little girls in 'pretty dresses and shoes as it's starts from an early age. However I am a sucker for a cute tutu and wellies on a toddler

If women dressed to please men they’d be walking around naked! I wear pretty dresses to please me!

1. Plenty of American slaves didn’t want emancipation. Plenty of British women didn’t want the vote.
2. ‘Wrap close your cloak so you won’t be bothered by ignorant folk’? Wtaf? Surely that is explicitly marking the Muslim woman out as object of a male or quasi-male gaze? Or why else would the ignorant folk be bothering her?
3. Most female dress codes are governed by a view of women as objects of male gaze. This is why the wonderful Professor Beard is so subversive and disturbing.

Exactly dottie

Women in burkah are low hanging fruit for racists who want to virtue signal

I do agree that in some places it’s a major issue and we all know that oppression exists

But boris could give a fuck abiut that . He just wanted to make a pop and selected the easy targets

As everyone does

Not read this thread but I chuckled at the ops first statement.
I really like high heels!! But I have not worn any for a good ten years 😂😂 not a single person around me has ever mentioned it noticed or cared and especially not dh, or any male members of the family.

I aim free to wear them or not wear them, (been in trainers for over a decade) leave the house alone or with who I like, no one in my family or community has or will put pressure on me to wear or not wear them and indeed my life is not in danger if I wear them or don't wear them.

So I do not in anyway see or accept such a ridicules comparison. Same goes for any revealing clothing, swim suits or dresses.

bartholin that's really interesting I always thought a man may as well be leading his wife around on all fours with a dog lead when I see her in full covering. It's the ultimate fetishism isn't it.

It's got nothing at all to do with Islam I'd love to know how the so called intelligent women came to that conclusion 😢

I can climb mountains or cross the seas,
Expand my mind in all degrees

You don’t need a burqa to do this.

I saw several interviews over the last few days. The women wearing the niqab all insisting it was their choice....that's cool. I don't agree with covering your face in public, but if it's their choice they should wear what they want.

However in several of these interviews these women also claimed that no women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab. On GMB this week, one claimed it never happens in the UK and any suggestion of some women being forced to wear them is ridiculous.

They presented her with some evidence that it does and she dismissed it.

To me that either says she is incredibly naive, is burying her head in the sand or has been heavily coached in what she should say and think. She is debating an issue that she didn't really understand.

To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka

No. Any other stupid questions?