To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

No of course make-up and heels are not comparable to the burka. You sound like you’re making excuses for what is an obviously oppressive and misogynistic practice.

Some are forced and some teenage girls like it when UK schools ban head coverings as they can discard theirs on school days which parents are insisting on.

However I would not ban any of this in the UK. I think most of the UK agrees we are not the kind of country that goes around banning this kind of thing. We are all at one on most of this and if those wearing religious clothing think they choose it that is up to them although people only the products of their background an upbringing so the extent to which any of chooses things is never very clear.

I think we might be not banning it because it has to be done across the board so skiing balaclavas and Santa Claus risk being banned too.

Sorry, no I don't get the link at all. High heels make you look appealing to the opposite sex, which is totally different to being covered head to toe to avoid attraction!

The full burka is bad, no doubt about tgat. You don’t wear one because you want to but because it’s either expected in your community or you feel shame about becoming attractive to men.

These women are victims of a cruel religion and culture. I think BJ is right in a sense but to make a joke out of the victims is inconsiderate at best.

Let's just ban it then and the victims can be freed of tyranny.

I think it's so hard for anyone outside some of the communities to understand the sheer level of control networks set up.

About two years ago I was reading about police training to learn how to circumnavigate traps.

Eg woman, girl runs away from home. She is handed back to her abusers. The police speak to the community elder.. Not the girl! Because they, the elder has said so.

We are in grave danger of having a two tier system here.

One for white western girls who can enjoy all the freedoms of our country but girls from certain communities are being mutilated still fgm and down to so called cultural sensitivity some are existing in a tightly controlled patriarchal prison.

The human brain is wired from birth to recognise faces.

I was at the Lake District a few years ago and there was a mum, dad and their little boy waiting for a boat at the same time as us. The little boy wanted to play with my dog so I told him it was ok, he's friendly etc... I could make small talk with his dad who was dressed in western clothes. His mum was head to foot in a burka, even her eyes were covered with mesh.

I couldn't see any body language or visual cues as to whether she also wanted to chat. She was almost sidelined from it all. I obviously did talk to her because I'm not a total arse who'd ignore her because of how she was dressed but I was on the back foot because I had no idea if she actually wanted to be part of the conversation. Not oppressive? Do me a favour. She was a shapeless, black form.

People aren't forced to wear high heels if they want to leave the house because of an ideologically sustained and legitimized domestic abuser mindset that all women are sluts and (the other side of the coin) that all men are beasts and that if your wife gets seen by other men they will obviously fuck.

So not really, no.

However I would not ban any of this in the UK. I think most of the UK agrees we are not the kind of country that goes around banning this kind of thing.

Agreed! We need less trigger happy banning of things not more. You want principles of freedom to apply in your society they apply to everyone.

Any item of clothing is oppressive if it is forced on people.

It's oppressive to force women to cover their faces. It's oppressive to ban them from covering their faces. Two countries with these laws might have implementations that differ in level of oppression, but that's a separate issue really. Someone freely choosing to cover their face isn't oppressed. Someone freely choosing to wear a bikini isn't oppressed.

I'd argue that it's also oppressive for a company to insist that women wear high heels and makeup. Or for a school to insist that a self-conscious girl with bad acne not wear any makeup. Those are very different practically in that they're specific policies and not legal requirements, but the theoretical position is the same.

I'm not saying 'every organisational uniform is oppressive' because obviously sometimes there are practical purposes for them, they aren't restrictive, and they don't single out women as a marked class. Much of it is about personal presentation - if you're proud to belong to the organisation, wearing the uniform won't negatively affect you, even if it isn't what you'd choose to wear in your free time and you dislike aspects of it. It's congruent with your sense of self. If it's the uniform of a job you hate, a school you hate, or a prison? That's very different psychologically. It isn't something you want to 'belong' to or be associated with. Hence the symbolism of the niqab being very different to someone who chose it and someone forced to wear it.

Sidenote: I live in a very multicultural area of the UK and I've never seen anyone wearing a burka. Plenty of niqabs but no burkas.

So the principles of freedom reach out to controlling men to create a network to force their women to do this in the name of freedom .. But not to the women forced to walk around like this?

Two tier apartheid system.

The issue is men telling women what they can or cannot wear. Some women choose to wear modest clothing (and I’m thinking nuns, Orthodox Jews and some orthodox Christian sects). Some women choose to wear niquab, burka, Chaddor whilst others choose miniskirts. That’s their right. We don’t tell women in abusive relationships who are forced to dress as dolly birds that we should be banning high heels and stockings. The issue is not the clothes it’s controlling relationships where choice is limited and women feel unable to leave.
I do wonder how many of the 60% who agree with Boris have ever spoken to the 0.1% of burka wearing women from the 4% Muslim community in the U.K.? That’s just 0.004% of the U.K. population- not the biggest or most threatening of cohorts.
I worry far more about harm caused by latent and overtly far right supporting, St George Cross wielding, vest wearing, head shaven louts.

I find the EDL far more distasteful than a burka but the coversation is about burkas.

They pretty much make the wearer invisible while ironically making them stand out like a sore thumb.

Most abusive men want to cover thier women up. They don't want other men looking at them.

No. Just, no

I find the ideology and network around the burka, far far more terrifying than the edl.

The ideology and whabbism behind the burka is basically extremism which has manifested itself in terror attacks on Western counties and isis, and the caliphate.

Because its extreme to make a woman feel she has to wear a full covering. It's not only extreme it's cultish. It has nothing to do ie with Islam even.

Personally I find the repression and control of women more scary than anything and the fact its not banned shows how we see treating women in the UK. How much we value them.

It's shameful. We have a two tier system.

Why is the outfit usually black? Couldn't coloured or patterned ones be worn and still do the trick? (Whatever that is). Just wondering really.

A few people have mentioned interviews where the interviewees have described how they are wearing a face covering out of choice. Of course we only ever really hear the views of assertive university-educated women who have made that choice! The women who are denied that choice and are being forced to wear a face covering are hardly going to be allowed out to say so, are they? That's if they speak English at all (many are actively discouraged from learning English and mixing with "locals" as a way of maintaining control).

Yes I hear those articulate women on the BBC a lot but nevertheless get never explain why it's their choice except to say it brings them closer to their God. We never get to the bottom of why this outfit brings women closer to God and not men.

I was about to disagree with the point about heels but suddenly remembered the time my friend and I were turned away from a nightclub in Australia for not wearing thrm
We were both wearing pretty flat jewelled sandals. We were disgusted but the bouncer was adamant- no heels, no entry.

people only the products of their background an upbringing so the extent to which any of chooses things is never very clear

This. I don't believe that it's a free choice except in the case of a few white converts.

I was about to disagree with the point about heels but suddenly remembered the time my friend and I were turned away from a nightclub in Australia for not wearing thrm
We were both wearing pretty flat jewelled sandals. We were disgusted but the bouncer was adamant- no heels, no entry

Interesting experience. I was going to say that I have never suffered any judgment or detriment because I don't wear heels, but you've illustrated it can happen outside the workplace. I suppose the bouncer was a man as well...

I don't agree with banning the burka educating women so they feel empowered to choose their own clothes and full state support for those women in doing so.

Likewise tea at the Ritz requires men to wear a tie - no tie, no entry. You can't compare a club/establishment's dress code to an existence's dress code.

Yes I agree Mrs Aidan Turner