To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

Have you seen what's happening in Denmark? Women are protesting for their rights to WEAR the niqab. That's exactly what will happen here if we try to ban it.

lulujakey1 the only way for you to understand how a women who wears a niqab feels and her reasoning is by actually having some sort of dialogue with a woman in the position.
The balaclava is associated with robberies and crime, no one has ever walked down the street wearing it like a day to day item. If it was, the association wouldn’t be there so no one would care.
There have been plenty of times where people haven’t removed their motorbike helmets in stores, no one has died of a panic attack or asked for the helmet to be removed.

Lonely There is no law to say anyone HAS to take their married partner's name. DD2 has kept her own name and her husband's.

Ppeatfruit - of course there isn’t, just as there isn’t a law in religion requiring the women to cover their face. It’s choice, so why interfere with choice?
Also, it also shows how indoctrinated we are, women happily change their names. It is and will really always be a mans world!

I am more comfortable in heels than flats, I wear them all year out of choice, boots in winter, shoes and sandals in summer, I don't feel oppressed, it's a choice and my choice, not because I'm being made to by my husband or by my work or because I feel socially pressured, I wear them for me. The only time I ever wear flats is when I'm cutting the grass and gardening or doing exercise. I don't really feel it's comparable to a Burkha tbh

LonelyStranger

I didn't change my name.

My DSis and DM didn't change theirs either.

It is and will really always be a mans world!

If we - women - agree to that and let ourselves be manipulated? Yes...

Bitch 'As soon as you ban people from wearing a certain item of clothing you are no longer a democratic country and I don't want to live somewhere where a government tells anyone what they can or cannot wear'

^^ That is what you said.

Actually, I don't think he is wearing a symbol of religious hatred. He is wearing a Nazi army officer uniform. I do think he is wearing something incredibly offensive and unacceptable which is why I asked you the question. Do you think he should be allowed to wear it given your view that governments should not be telling people what they can and can't wear?

I am not getting at you, I just think we seem to have teached a place where some issues are openly discussed and it is acceptable to discuss them and others are not and it isn't. The whole thing is very complex.

I agree that most women wearing niqab and burqas are wearing them for religious reasons. Most motorcyclists who wear ski masks/balaclavas or helmets wear them without crime in mind. Yet we expect mortorcyclists to be sensitive to the feelings of the public at large and not wear them off their motorcycles but don't expect the same of people wearing hijabs and burqas- infact we expect the public to adapt to them.

meymary that’s good to hear. Going off on a tangent, but I’m just making the point that women as half the population really have to fight a lot. Pay gaps, wanting to fight front line in the armed forces etc etc. Women are still seen as inferior beings (unable to fill most of the top posts in many sectors), even in the developed world.

DrNu

I've read that. And I don't agree with him. Or you. Is that OK?

lulujakey1 do you find the headscarf on its own a problem too? Or is it the face covering (genuine question).
Would headdress only apply to Muslim women? Or are we talking about religious hats/turbans too?

I don’t think boris is a prick I think he’s right. France banned it for a reason and we should do it too.

*Nobody ever died from walking past somebody searing a niqab
*
No. But plenty of women have died from the oppression such clothing often represents.

You do realise that the debate really isn't about bits of material, right?

As soon as you ban people from wearing a certain item of clothing you are no longer a democratic country

Then the UK is not a democratic country.

Ds can follow a group of women with full face covering into a supermarket yet he is the one asked to remove his hoodie.

There seems to be an almost rascist element to it.

LonelyStranger

I agree. And I've encountered this in my own family. On some level even in the difference with home my DM (who is really quite modern and a feminist) treats my DSIs and me compared to our DBs. Or cousins... I don't even think she herself realises it. Because she always complains about her mother listening to anything with a penis. (Which is true. A man's word and opinion just matters so much more to my nonna...)

But that's what I mean. My grandmother is a woman and yet makes the (admittedly probably subconscious) choice to value peoprle this way... It's so often women doing it to other women. And themselves.

Btw, the democratically elected government telling people what to wear isn't undemocratic. I personally support democracy / thinks it the best idea of a worse bunch but it clearly has its limits and an obvious potential for abuse/oppression. The "tyranny of the many" etc...

Lonelystranger I have said I have no problem at all with hijab or chador headresses, it is the face covering that I find intimidating.

jellybears so you’re happy to ban all religious items of clothing? So you would like to see Sikh men having to remove their turbans, Jewish women who wear headdress to remove it? Nuns to remove religious clothing? Sikh women to remove their headdresses?
Where will it stop jellybears?

Btw, there is a thread on here talking about a woman exposing her breast to nurse her baby. There's a thread about face veils. And probably a ton of other threads about women wearing clothes. And many of the people trying to police the attire are probably women themselves (in this case).

I don't support the face veil so I myself participate in that policing... But it's interesting, isn't it? We're not doing it to men, are we?

BananaTofo Many people have died from walking past someone wearing a burqa or niqab - they are used to disguise suicide bombers in parts of the world.

oliversmummy that’s terrible and I see your point.

lulujakey1 sorry I missed that

meymary agree with you 100%

Ds can follow a group of women with full face covering into a supermarket yet he is the one asked to remove his hoodie.

May I ask whether they give some sort of explanation / tell him why he has to take it off? :/

Of course we shouldn’t ban all religious clothing but we should ban clothing that covers the face.

And we should definatly ban religious clothing for under 16s.

And we should definatly ban religious clothing for under 16s.

Why?

True, Lulu. True.

MeyMary

Because little girls of 7 are in British schools today wearing head scarfs long sleeves and ankle length trousers.

It’s utterky ridiculous and enforced the notion that even little girls must dress modestly.