To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

Much as I appreciate liberal Muslim scholars dismissing the validity of burkas & face coverings - and I wish more people were listening to them - they have a real problem in that what they are saying isn't strictly true.

It's certainly debatable whether there's any Koranic instruction to cover faces (like all holy books this is inconsistent) but there's no doubt at all that women are supposed to cover their hair and bodies.

It's all there in black and white for anyone to read. There are multiple verses & quotations from Mohammed which expressly say that women should be covered - and the reason for this is to avoid them inflaming the passions of passing men AND to protect themselves from rape. The latter is especially important because women were considered to be at fault when they were raped and could be stoned to death as a result..

Religions, of course, evolve and there's no reason why Islam cannot evolve away from such stuff...and for most it basically has....but while there are fundamentalists around who scour their holy books for justification for their misogyny the more liberal Muslim voices just won't be heard by those who need to be listening.

That's why the whole "This isn't truly Islamic" message is neither true nor helpful.

Security but apparently the burqua or scarves or women and men wearing any other head attire doesn't count.

There's no history of women wearing niqabs robbing banks here. And they're not wearing them to intimidate other people, they're minding their own business!

So no one has ever work a niqab and done something illegal? In that a case we should all be wearing them and stamp our from entirely.

So you are happy to ban clothing because some people who wear that clothing are dickheads. Some one robs a bank in a balaclava, so it's ok to ban them? No-one else can wear them?

I think all religious garments should be banned in schools, girls having to wear hijab in school is ridiculous. The thing is it becomes the norm, social pressures start telling women to cover up as it’s not respectable and starts creeping into our society, I don’t want my daughter to grow up in that environment, I want her to enjoy the freedom I have.

Me neither Gin96

There was a thread here a while back about a dinner lady telling a 6 year old not to do cartwheels as she was showing her pants!!!!!

We need to stop this crap especially in schools.

I wonder how long before criminals planning robbery hit on the idea of wearing burqa (if they haven't already).

I’ve aaked this so many times, and I will once again banana banning all religious attire worn by women of all religions? If that’s so, I guess no one can complain one religion is treated far better compared to another.

BMW when you say burka, are you referring to the face veil only or are you against the headscarf too?

*and I will once again banana banning all religious attire by women of all religions?
*
Rather a lot of people, me included, are not in favour of banning them. Point one.

Point two - please exercise some common sense. It is the oppression and misogyny inherent in the wearing of these clothes & what they represent that most people are objecting to.

You tried to include Christian nuns earlier. Christian nuns CHOOSE to become nuns as adults and ELECT to wear habits. They were not born nuns and told, whether they like it or not, that they must wear them. Can you see the difference?

It's impossible to generalise as to why burka wearers wear them...some will be through choice, others because they are expected to. But under what circumstances are those who choose to making that choice? Quite probably a lifetime of being taught that they must display modesty or risk rape &/or bringing "dishonour" on their family? A choice made because of brainwashing isn't much of a choice, imo.

But the bottom line is this....we try very, very hard to be a progessive country with equal rights and opportunities. We are trying to shrug off a patriarchy that has existed for millenia and to ensure all women feel valued for who they are & what they contribute. Women walking around in tents lest they inflamme male passions runs counter to that in a very obvious way. So the more this conversation happens the better.

But your "question" to me is rather moot. We are talking specifically about the burka. If you can tell me of another religious symbol that women are required to wear that has the effect of dehumanising them to the degree that the burka does, please tell me about it.

And while you are doing that...answer the question I have asked you TWICE.

If the wearers of the burka just want to feel "closer to god"...why don't men feel the same compunction and show it in the same way.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN THAT MEANS WOMEN MUST COVER UP TO BE CLOSE TO GOD BUT MEN DON'T.

(Emphasis...not shouting. Just hopeful you won't miss the question for the third time).

BananaToffo

Excellent post

Western women don't dress to please men, they dress to impress other women

banana firstly just like nuns Muslim women aren’t born wearing the niqab (I am assuming you are talking about the face veil only). The few that wear it, whom I’ve had these conversations with chose to do so in adulthood. I cannot (as I’ve said before) comment with regards to those who have been (as you state with no facts) forced.

I have talked about the Jewish sect where women wear the burka to try to show all those that are unaware that the three Abrahamic faiths have so much more in common include dress. Those men do not wear burka either. So I guess next time, I will need to ask my Jewish friends the same question, why the women and not men?

I’ve explained what I know to you banana, but you’ve refused to understand my posts. Both anout women as inferior beings in all societies, and the fact that men are told they have to grow beards and wear headdress, be that a hat, turban or a scarf (Jews, Sikhs, Muslim men), and robes (as you notice).
Asking why men don’t dress just like women is a very open question? How can I address this when, we as a society, are barely accepting people who cross dress? Why can a man not attend a job interview in a skirt? Same principle different belief system.

Also a lot of previous posters have pointed out, there is a huge difference in interpretations of dress code in any one religion. Therefore you have the Amish women with headdress, the nuns, you have Jewish women who wear a wig, those who cover with scarf and those wear burka.

The basic answer to your question is, no one treats women equally, even in a progressive society.

Also banana your post shows your confusion between those who chose culture and therefore honour and those who wear it later on in life through choice.
You cannot possibly comprehend the choice, as you do not believe in that. So asking for explanations is pointless, it’s like debating someone who believes in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, you’ll never see what they see and I cannot help as I am not a ‘burka wearer’

ather a lot of people, me included, are not in favour of banning them. Point one.

Point two - please exercise some common sense. It is the oppression and misogyny inherent in the wearing of these clothes & what they represent that most people are objecting to
If you are opposed to ‘oppression and misogyny have you done something about this? Donated to organisations supporting Muslim women who are in need? Or to Women’s Aid in general? Written to your MP and local councillors to protest funding cuts to women’s organisations?

You tried to include Christian nuns earlier. Christian nuns CHOOSE to become nuns as adults and ELECT to wear habits. They were not born nuns and told, whether they like it or not, that they must wear them. Can you see the difference?
They were mostly born into religious families and brought up with that religion. But what evidence other than your own opinion do you have that there are women in the Muslim community forced to wear this? Have you lived in a Muslim area or worked with Muslims? Have you done research or reading around this area? Or is this just based on your ‘opinion’? In addition if what you ‘think’ were to be true how would banning a garment be of any use, you say it signals to you that the women wearing them are oppressed, will they be less oppressed if they wear different clothes?

It's impossible to generalise as to why burka wearers wear them...some will be through choice, others because they are expected to. But under what circumstances are those who choose to making that choice? Quite probably a lifetime of being taught that they must display modesty or risk rape &/or bringing "dishonour" on their family? A choice made because of brainwashing isn't much of a choice, imo
Again what evidence do you have, who do you actually know in this community, has this community asked for help? What right do you have to decide what is/isn’t ‘brainwashing’, is Roman Catholicism brainwashing, is Christianity ‘brainwashing’ many people think this. So do we ban all religions and expression of religion? And if you are talking about women’s choices what about the women who do choose to wear them? What right do you have to tell those women they can’t? We have extended definitions of abuse to emotional coercion, if we want to send a signal then add forcing women to wear clothes they don’t like or present in ways they find oppressive.

But the bottom line is this....we try very, very hard to be a progessive country with equal rights and opportunities. We are trying to shrug off a patriarchy that has existed for millenia and to ensure all women feel valued for who they are & what they contribute. Women walking around in tents lest they inflamme male passions runs counter to that in a very obvious way. So the more this conversation happens the better.
It is not progressive to ban things because we don’t understand them or find them ‘intimidating’, I remember when people claimed that they didn’t want to live next door to India people because they ‘stink of curry and it makes me feel sick’ talking about women ‘walking around in tents’ really reminiscent of that. Also if you feel so strongly about these women why are you perpetuating their objectification by describing them in this way?

But your "question" to me is rather moot. We are talking specifically about the burka. If you can tell me of another religious symbol that women are required to wear that has the effect of dehumanising them to the degree that the burka does, please tell me about it.
You may find it ‘dehumanising’ but you are not being asked to wear it, it’s the women who are part of the community who should be allowed to decide what they want to do about this and to be given support if they ask for it. Imposing your views on them is just as oppressive.

And while you are doing that...answer the question I have asked you TWICE.

If the wearers of the burka just want to feel "closer to god"...why don't men feel the same compunction and show it in the same way.
I can’t answer that question because I am not a Muslim, in the same way that I do not understand why evangelical Christians cite Paul when talking about the role of women in relation to men. I don’t understand it but I respect the right to religious freedom and the right to religious expression.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN THAT MEANS WOMEN MUST COVER UP TO BE CLOSE TO GOD BUT MEN DON'T.
If you are interested in this there are many podcasts, books and articles by Muslim women about forms of ‘veiling’, or contact a Muslim women’s centre and ask if there is anyone you could meet with. But religion of any kind makes little sense to those outside it, and the place of women within a number of religions has been problematic. However things shift over time, which is why we now have female ministers in the Anglican and Baptist churches. But that change came from within the religion

And personally I'm not keen on citing Denmark as a good example, the far right in Denmark is in the ascendancy and they lobbied hard for the ban. Human Rights Groups such as Amnesty have come out against it. If there are situations in which covering the face is an issue for security reasons that is easily solved by banning face coverings of any kind (the Danish ban I believe extends to masks and other forms of face coverings) in places where security is an issue such as banks, airport security and so on...

banana

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN THAT MEANS WOMEN MUST COVER UP TO BE CLOSE TO GOD BUT MEN DON'T.*

I guess the same difference between the way a nun dresses and a monk/priest, the same difference between the Jewish husband and his wife, the same difference between the Amish man and woman....I don’t know, but do you see a pattern? All religions (and even society itself) place a difference on men and women.
All the above mentioned dress as they do out of their devotion to God, but both sexes wear different attire.

My muslim friend use to say "When I listen to the Imam talk about modesty, I feel like wearing a miniskirt, when I listen to comments about women's bodies and standard of beauty in the West, I feel like wearing a Burka" I always thought this was spot on!

Well, Dottie

It's absolutely none of your business whether I've donated to any organisation of any kind...and has precisely no relevance whatsoever to any point I'm making.

I don't really care if nuns were brought up religious (and yes, I suspect they usually are, but not always) the point is there's no expectation on anyone to become a nun. It's an adult choice. A freely made adult choice? Possibly not if they were brainwashed, but I do not believe it's common for evangelical or fundamentalist Christians to brainwash their daughters into becoming nuns. But even if it was, so what? You seem to be suggesting that "Oh wel, other religions do it to, so that's OK". No. Not OK.

Yes. I am against all brainwashing. And yes, I think there is Christian brainwashing. But, sorry, I think Islam is currently the worst for human rights abuses and misogynistic practices right now.

Once again...you are going for the "But it's not just Islam" angle...which is a pointless, ignorant argument. We are talking about the burka. Has that escaped you?

Why are you assuming I (or anyone else) does not understand Islam? How arrogant. And, I AM NOT IN FAVOUR OF BANNING THE BURKA. I was quite explicit about that.

*You may find it 'dehumanising' but you are not being asked to wear it, it's the women who are part of the community who should be allowed to decide what they want to do about this and to be given support if they ask for it. Imposing your views on them is just as oppressive.
*
A profoundly ignorant, backward and stupid paragraph. You should be embarrassed to have written it.

If you don't think that a woman covered in a black tent with slits for her eyes isn't dehumanised, then there is something wrong with you, quite honestly. Whether she feels dehumanised or not isn't the point...it's the reactions of people around her.

And when we see what we regard as oppression we have to shut the fuck up? I don't think so. And I am "imposing" nothing on anyone...I am sharing a point of view.

I am truly sick to death of virtue signallers like you trying to pretend that sharing an opinion is "imposing" on others. It's not, and it never has been.

And - sorry for the logic here as it doesn't seem to be a strong point of yours - but standing back and letting oppressed women deal themselves with the oppression they live with is a bit stupid, don't you think? Because oppression makes that difficult for them. If they could do that easily, dear, then they wouldn't be oppressed

I can't answer that because I am not a muslim

I didn't ask you, did I? I was asking that in direct response to another poster.

And keep your book recommendations, thanks. I already know more about this subject than you.

LonelyStranger

So you think all outward expressions of religious belief are equal?

Are men expected to wear turbans (when they are) so they won't get raped?

Sikh men wear turbans. Sikh women wear turbans. Nothing to do with inflamming the passions of men or "modesty".

Do you know what "modesty" actually means? It's basically all about sex. Expecting women to be modest is all about men.

But, of course, if women want to be "modest" they are quite entitled, which is why I would not be in favour of a ban.

But I think it's a tragedy that any woman is living her life according to the misogynistic ideals of 1500 years ago, and I don't mind saying so.

banana I appreciate what you are saying, and I as well as most people, are aware that the three Abrahamic faiths preach modesty. Each with a varying angle and dress codes.

I also appreciate you do not like the idea of the face veil, but aren’t too fussed about the headdress?
Well, I’m not trying to change your mind, and most of my posts actually focus on two things, all religions have dress codes (orthodox versions of all) and women have never been accepted as equal in any society. That’s the hard and fast rule of society...otherwise we wouldn’t be worrying about pay gaps, women underrepresented in a lot of fields etc etc.

I would love to go into in-depth explanations of the niqab and why someone would choose to wear it, but I can’t, and I doubt a Muslim woman who wears it is going to come along on mumsnet to justify her choice

I've been thinking about this a lot.

I think when it comes down to it, it's nothing to do with high heels or other religious clothes. Yes we have our problems here, women are judged more harshly by what they wear and there are cultural pressures to dress and to look a certain way.

Ultimately I think the point with the burka/niqab basically anything that covers your face, is that people don't want to see people going round with their faces covered.

BananaToffo I answered your questions politely, I did not personally attack you, your response however does tell me something about you, thanks for that. I did not suggest you knew nothing about Islam, you asked questions that are too complex for non-Muslims to answer, you seemed genuine in wanting to find answers so I made some 'polite' suggestions about where you might find those. If you don't find those suggestions helpful fine, but is there really a need to be so rude in your response? I made those suggestions because I lived for a long time in a Muslim area and worked with young Muslim women, I had similar questions those were the suggestions made to me. I still don't understand why people make certain choices because no religion makes sense to me, but that's my issue.

As for the women needing to speak for themselves, I stand by that, imposing outsiders' beliefs on a community is oppressive, it's a complex debate in the Muslim community. But what I see is a furore sparked by a man - who seeks to gain politically - and then appeals to other forms of authority such as the Imam - also a man - about what women should and shouldn't do. And the point about supporting organisations I stand by too, if there are women who are oppressed banning a garment is irrelevant, it doesn't affect the root of the oppression. But supporting organisations that help oppressed women does do something positive.

It's quite simple, LonelyStranger

Find yourself a copy of the Koran and read up on why it is that women are expected to cover at least their bodies, possibly their faces too.

It was nothing to do with "being close to God" and all to do with being modest before men because they were owned by men.

Owned by men.

And, yes, I am quite sure that every religion has similar-ish injunctions in their ancient scriptures too because that is the history of the world in most places....women were owned by men. But women were also creatures of temptation who have only themselves to blame if they are raped.

So, excuse me, if I feel appalled at any woman anywhere still wearing such a blatant symbol of misogynistic hatred 1500 years later.

Headscarfs for me are less problematic. Yes, they come from the same sexist injunctions, but they do not reduce women to "things" that can't be looked at by others and aren't dehumanising at all. They, I think, can be seen more as simple symbols of faith and they aren't incompatible with the values we are all striving to attain for everyone in our society.

banana I still feel it is unfair for you to state the claim that that is the only reason women dress like that. Devotion to God, for some, merely means following all rules set out by religion.
I also believe there is misinterpretation with regards to why women chose to dress as such. If a religion believes in full accountability for all, its hard to see your point in relation to that.
Mary (mother of Jesus) is depicted to dress extremely modestly, I don’t think, that is the same as what you state (modesty -sex).

If that is the case, I guess a lot of religions impose modesty for one reason only

*I would love to go into in-depth explanations of the niqab and why someone would choose to wear it
*
Why would you love to do that? Muslim women are not a homogeneous bunch...they are individuals with individual reasons. Which is why I don't think a ban is reasonable or fair.

Dottie

I actually think some parts of your lecture were appalling and I said so. I think your "Butt out, it's got nothing to do with us" with regard to female oppression is awful and I strongly suspect comes more from a need to halo polish than any genuine regard for your fellow human beings. If you find that "rude"...oh well.

But I am chiefly furious at your insistence that people like me should just shut up. No. We have hard won rights to criticise religion (ALL RELIGION) in this country that are being eroded by people like you. You are doing far more damage than you realise.

Oh and, ....you asked questions that are too complex for non-Muslims to answer Says who?

I don’t think society is progressing when it comes to women’s rights as much as most believe. I’ve stated a fair few examples in my posts, if women want equality it is a very hard and long road ahead.