to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

I must admit I do mostly walk places myself like the supermarket, swimming pool, retail park, shopping centre and really appreciate being able to. Living somewhere that you have to drive constant doesn't appeal personally.

It’s interesting you put driving down to privilege.

In fact if I were more privileged I would have the enormous cost of renting, wouldn’t have to drop my children at various nurseries and schools and drive to work.

There is not a bus in the world that could get me from the drop offs to work on time. And as one of my jobs involves outreach community work I have to get to several different addresses in one evening.

Taking away my car would leave me in poverty and othe people who are vulnerable without support. Privilege indeed!

wouldnt have the cost

I generally agree that there is much unnecessary driving going on and many people could make better choices and put more effort into caring about the environment.

However, the structure of the modern life is such that it often precludes the use of public transport. As many responses here show, public transport is very often simply inadequate for people's travel needs. And in our modern society we move probably more than ever before.

In the past, many women (especially white, middle-class women) would not have worked outside the home. This means they would have had time available during the day to walk or take public transport to the shops/clinic/post office, etc. Today most women work, many full-time. This reduces amount of time families have available for doing stuff and increases reliance on faster modes of transport.

In the past, housing in city and town centres was cheaper so people who worked could live closer to their work. Now city centres are either rough or stupidly expensive and most people are pushed out onto the edges, often living on massive sleeper estates where it can take 20 minutes just to walk to the nearest bus stop, never mind the train.

People also did not change jobs as much as today, jobs were more secure and long-term. This means that you could buy a house near your work and be reasonably secure that you will keep this job for years to come. Now employment is much more insecure. The job next to your house can fold tomorrow and the next available one can be tens of miles away. Buying another house is very expensive, moving is stressful (especially if you have children). Renting would add flexibility, but it's insecure. Getting to your new job by public transport is likely to be a pain.

The nature of the UK employment market often means that people have to move away from their original families to find work. This means long trips back home to visit and fulfill caring responsibilities. Again, public transport may be very inconvenient or expensive (especially if you are not traveling alone).

So when we think about car use, all sorts of things need to be taken into account and not just how lazy people might be.

It's not goady for OP to have asked whether there are morally /ethically too many unnecessary journeys going on

It is when she lives in her West London fantastic public transport bubble. How is it not?

As many responses here show, public transport is very often simply inadequate for people's travel needs.

Particularly evenings and Sundays where the service is usually pretty awful meaning that without a car you're pretty much stuck at home outside daylight weekday hours.

The earliest train from my main line station on a Sunday is 9.30. That means you're not going to get anywhere exciting until after lunchtime which really limits your choice of a decent day out.

Same with trains to Manchester Airport. They don't start early enough to get us there before the early departures between 7am and 10am, especially allowing for cancellations and delays (Thanks Northern!).

We desperately need a 24/7 public transport system. Obviously fewer commuter trains at weekends, but we need better services for tourism/attractions etc.

The nature of the UK employment market often means that people have to move away from their original families to find work.

Which also has a knock on effect on rural communities which are losing the schools, shops, libraries etc due to so few people "living" in them, with children usually never coming back from Uni as there are no decent jobs local enough to their home town/village and public transport is so poor that commuting to the nearest larger towns/cities is simply impossible. Better train services (faster more frequent) from the branch lines into the major cities would mean that it would be feasible for people to live in their home towns and still be able to get decent jobs, which in turn would rejuvenate these run down rural communities.

It's goady because of the way it was worded. OP needs to climb down off that big horse of theirs. If they could drive they would.
If people were banned from driving, even if it was just in the city, public transport services would have to double at least, and run 24/7 sometimes carrying only one or two passengers. What would be the good in that?

I’m a frontline emergency service worker- car is a must for me. Station location not great for public transport- wouldn’t work with my shifts.
We are encouraged to look at alternatives, bike to work schemes etc. I work about 17 miles from home though so not possible

Bad planning doesn't help for example building housing estates in the middle of nowhere with no supermarket/GP surgery or school. Bonus points when such estate has only one parking space per property.

pacer142, I totally agree. We do need a 24/7 public transport system. I also think that we could learn a bit from how other countries operate - e.g. I have seen in a number of countries bus systems that consist not of a few lines with full-size massive buses running on then, by multiple lines served by frequent smaller vehicles like mini-buses. I guess it's sort of in-between a bus and a taxi.

Lots of people have said that public transport is largely unsuitable (and I agree). However it's also not just about disabled people who might not be able to use public transport, it's about getting appropriate services to vulnerable people who might not be able to leave their homes.

I work for the NHS. With my car, which is my own but insured for business use, I can visit ten patients at home per day. These are extremely vulnerable people who have a right to the service I provide. I have experimentally mapped out my journey were I to be made to use public transport instead (in a very large city, with buses, light rail and an underground network which largely run on time and efficiently). Even then, I would be reduced to three to four patients per day. Would it be fair to slash the service they can receive because public transport is somehow "better"?

I am very pro- electric vehicles and will be getting one as soon as it's practical. But the idea that cars = bad also smacks of privilege. It speaks to someone who has never had to consider the needs of people who might otherwise be trapped in their homes, or need services that can only be provided via a car. Yes we could go back to the "good old days" where everyone walked or used the bus and cars were a rarity. But in those same "good old days", most of the people I refer to above would now be dead. Swings and roundabouts, eh.

SnuggyBuggy, yep, I purposefully avoid these massive out-of-town nothing-is-near estates when picking a place to live precisely because I hate the thought of driving everywhere. But I am lucky to have a bit of choice in my situation. And I still end up driving places.

Basically I live in the sticks and don't want to spend all my time getting several buses any time I want to leave the village. HTH.

I love driving. Simple as that.

I drive for convenience but I pay a premium for that in all the extra taxes on fuel, car, parking levy etc that non-car users do not pay

I wonder what would happen if every car was fitted with a device to charge a tax on every trip under 3 miles

50% of car journeys are under 3 miles, which alternative transport could be used,

With less cars on the roads it would be safer for bikes, more bike trips could easily be taken under 3 miles and there are even bike taxis and bikes are being used by souped makers now for home delivery of shopping 🛒

Pollution kills and the pollution inside a car is worse for a child than outside the car

Eventually parents will become as horrified at the pollution inside a car as they would to put thier child in a room with people smoking, as it has a detrimental affect on thier health

Oh tomoatosoup driving taxes don’t cover the costs of driving, drivers are supplement to the tune of over 18B.B. By general taxation, so non drivers are paying for your driving

ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as-road-tax/when-will-drivers-start-paying-the-full-costs-of-motoring/

Fortunately for drivers tax on fuel has been held down since 2012 so the revenue from other sources has increased

ivykaty44, how about just creating a decent public transport infrastructure, using sensible planning and building an economy with secure jobs instead of putting people through even more misery with a tax structure of such mindboggling complexity that it will surely cost zillions to maintain?

I wonder what would happen if every car was fitted with a device to charge a tax on every trip under 3 miles

Are you making dispensations for people who need cars?

What if you need to buy something heavy? My OH just bought a sink and not surprisingly didn't fancy a half hour walk with it.

For many of the people I see on a daily basis, a car is well beyond their financial reach and they see it as a privilege. Walking, cycling and bus is how they transport themselves, as it’s just far to expensive to drive

@ivykaty another assumption that people could use alternative means of transport for every short journey. My nearest train station is approximately 3 miles from my house....when I do need a train i drive to the station. There is no other way to get there. There isn't a bus, there isn't a footpath for a good proportion of the journey so walking is out as it's not safe and a taxi would defeat the purpose of not driving.

Just out of curiosity I’ve put my commute into traveline and these are the results. It’s a 45 minute drive. I’m not rural, the start and end point are a large villlage and a small town, but the need to cross a county boundary seems beyond UK public transport planners.