to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

If I took public transport to and fro work I'd never get to see my children

Some of the Birmingham areas have public transport as good as London. I used to live in Edgbaston and it was excellent.

Which is why lots of us have asked you over the last half an hour to name some, so it is no longer a broad, generalised statement. Yet for some reason, you still won't. Or can't.

More info needed.

I didn't say ALL, I said MANY, that isn't generalised at all many places have worse public transport than London, and many places have better. Certainly lots of places have faster! In fact one thing my children always commented on when we went on holiday is how fast country buses travel, compared to London buses

If I were to get public transport to work, it would take a walk (15 min) to the bus stop, then a bus which comes once an hour (and often doesn't turn up), a 50 minute bus journey, change, wait for another bus which comes every half an hour and the timetables don't sync up, another 25 minute bus journey through every bastard street in the town, and then a 15 minute walk at the other side. So, overall, 1h45 travelling time plus an average of 20-ish minutes waiting. Or, I could drive in 25 minutes.

but you don't NEED to go strawberry picking, or you can go strawberry picking somewhere else reachable by public transport...

So we should only do things that we NEED to do, unless we can get there by public transport, then that’s allowed?

I can kind of see your point, and think short journeys could be cut down on, ie if you can walk to the shop that’s a short distance away rather than driving then you should. But I don’t agree that people should triple or quadrouple their commute just for the sake of your argument about pollution.

Stop acting holier than thou. Just because you can manage something doesn’t mean that everyone else can or SHOULD.

Oxford has excellent bus links too.

exactly @MrSpock**

NO not exactly, you think I should drag my small children out of bed at 5am in the morning to make them walk in the Dark! That's not just the convenience gosh some numpties around on here

@BlaaBlaaBlaa Biology. Including sex education. Although one of her two adopted (although that's in doubt) is off to university and the OP is thinking of doing lots of online courses and having a new career. I think this thread is her practicing to be a columnist for the Daily Fail. She'll be the new Melanie Phillips.

NO not exactly, you think I should drag my small children out of bed at 5am in the morning to make them walk in the Dark! That's not just the convenience gosh some numpties around on here

No, I don’t. That’s perfectly understandable.

But I do think people driving 10-20 minute journeys, unless they’re disabled or expecting to carry something heavy, takes the piss.

In the town where I used to live, I was a 15 minute drive from work - but an hour by public transport. Public transport is very poor in a lot of places, and near me the prices continue to go up and the services are getting cut/changed, so it becomes even less attractive as an alternative.

The reality is that if public transport was a reasonable option then the majority of people would take it but it isn't run properly in the vast majority of the UK. I can't help but wonder whether you love in Central London. That is the only place I find car use unnecessary.

Haha @shatnerswig well, then as a scientist she should better understand the problems with sweeping statements that lack any kind of credible evidence.

@MrSpock Sadly, we were wanting the OP to name these places which she says are superior to London rather than you. Preferably in the rural/semi-rural areas. I don't count Birmingham or Oxford as those. I used to live in Oxford and buses aren't bad. But it's not superior to London.

The reality is that if public transport was a reasonable option then the majority of people would take it but it isn't run properly in the vast majority of the UK. I can't help but wonder whether you love in Central London. That is the only place I find car use unnecessary.

I agree it isn’t run properly but you don’t need to live in London to not have a car. I don’t.

Country buses won't run as often as London ones and possibly not all when the tourists have gone home.

@mrspock my 10-20 minute drive to drop DS off at school would take an hour and a half to two hours by public transport and is not walkable period.

I used to walk a lot - one job I had it was actually quicker to walk about 2.5 miles rather than use public transport (two buses & waiting times between). I learned to drive & got a car when I realised my job prospects were being limited geographically just by the availability of public transport.

I remember my FIL saying, many years ago, that I'd never have any spare money when I had a car. It's true it costs more than public transport, even these days, but I don't mind paying for the freedom it gives me. For over 20 years I had a hobby that took me away most weekends, and it would not have been possible if I'd had to use public transport. (And public transport is far worse, and more restricted, than it was then)

Sadly, we were wanting the OP to name these places which she says are superior to London rather than you. Preferably in the rural/semi-rural areas. I don't count Birmingham or Oxford as those. I used to live in Oxford and buses aren't bad. But it's not superior to London.

I’d have said Oxford was fairly rural? But I’m from a city and have always lived in a city and so my definition of rural might be biased!

we have 2 children, both of us work fulltime. no car. possible with a bit of organising and a lot of walking

I get what you’re saying, but in reality outside of London, public transport is not great.

It takes me 25 mins to get to work in my car. To travel to work by bus, it would take me 1 hour and 45 mins. There are no trains where I live. I cannot manage the breakfast club drop off and get to work on time by public transport, so have no choice but to travel by car.

I live in West London, the public transport in Surrey is very good, faster than London

I’d have said Oxford was fairly rural?

Really? Really?

my 10-20 minute drive to drop DS off at school would take an hour and a half to two hours by public transport and is not walkable period.

There’s not much you can do about that one, I agree. Sometimes there isn’t.

@HermansHermit It may be true for you that your car costs more than public transport, but not for everyone, as some of us quantified earlier.