to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

And, not that its remotely relevant, but my children are adopted

Not according to another thread @Clairetree1 where you talk about being having induced for a vaginal birth. Timings and everything.

Oh dear......

Would wouldn't consider a 16 hour shift a long day?? Do you have more hours in your days than the rest of us?

well, I am a teacher, so 12hours minimum in school, more normally 13-14 hours, several hours work carried home every day, bus journey over an hour - I think that is a fairly normal working day, yes, and to be honest a lot of people with much shorter days than that, parttime workers etc, are also driving!

Some people are being very nasty to the OP. Yes, there are many circumstances in which it is necessary to drive, there's no need to be so defensive about it as I think we can all acknowledge that. But is it really that difficult to consider the points that perhaps not every single journey needs to be done in a car, and that perhaps public transport isn't full of nasty and trashy people?

By the way Claire I disagree with accusations of goading, I consider that some posters confuse argumentative tendencies with ignorance.

It seems to me that you are someone who has the courage of their convictions. I would like to be truer to my beliefs regarding education and environmental issues as you are.

Not according to another thread @Clairetree1 where you talk about being having induced for a vaginal birth. Timings and everything.

that child died.

Anything else you want to ask?

You're assuming each of those buses had 60 people in. Highly unlikely.

I don't believe that for a second. I'm a teacher too, there's not a chance I'd be able to carry everything I need to do my job well on public transport.

You're angry about cars but you use planes.

Your children are adopted but you birthed them vaginally.

I think you're actually full of shit.

Oh dear, off on a tangent we all go.... I had to reread the op original post again to get this into perspective. I think your post went a bit off piste with the "killing children" part. I'm assuming you were on the bus at the time of counting? Driving isn't a luxury anymore, something is only a luxury if not many people have it. Ie people all over the world have a mobile phone, therefore it isn't classed as a luxury anymore. People have cars, therefore not a luxury or privilege.

I could see the point at the beginnng of the post but now I see more activist signals about something that really is quite normal, driving.

As others have said it's about where you live, not what your thoughts about pollution are. Let's all just get on with what we do, as long as it's not illegal of course!!

And that there are 60 people all driving a similar journey

I have an electric car and therefore will not allow you to guilt me into conforming to your set ideas on how I must live.

and why do you think this cause less pollution? It doesn't

I consider that some posters confuse argumentative tendencies with ignorance.

Claiming only rich people have cars for example is being goady as OP knows full well that isn't true..

Hont1986 he's not holding
his body weight up though on a steering wheel so his grip/sensation is perfectly adequate for today's power steering cars. He wouldn't drive if his hands ever started slipping off the steering wheel which may happen one day as his condition progresses but being a very responsible person he would stop long before it came to that.

Public transport is pretty expensive and definitely nowhere near as convenient. In London, it is absolutely fantastic and I think people who have no experience of public transport outside of London will have a very blinkered view as a result. I like in a major city in the North and the transport is shite. Buses are regularly late, trains regularly delayed and to get to somewhere fairly close by can mean two-four buses and two trains. It takes a lot longer and is just a pain.

It cost me £20 to get myself and three DC to a town that’s about half an hour away from where we live. Petrol would have been a quarter of that and soooo much more convenient.

If they want less people to drive, they need to make PT as efficient as London’s everywhere.

Added to which public transport isn't always reliable....look at the furore recently when tea in services upon which people relied in the Lake District were cancelled.

My Mum can't fathom why I drive into Plymouth to take her shopping when I'm back in the UK, and why I don't use the Park and Ride. Simple....not a lot of difference between the cost of the Park and Ride and paying for parking in town, plus the convenience of being able to put the shopping in the boot, and whisking mother home quickly when she decides she's had enough and wants to leave instantly.

Interesting @Clairetree. My DC have relied on public transport for the past couple of years and I've had to go and pick them up a couple of times recently when the trams have been too full so not stopped, broken down or cancelled due to vandalism. Two out of my three train trips to London have had problems meaning we've had to run from Euston to King's Cross and get a very long route home. It might be just bad luck but it doesn't inspire confidence.

However petrol/diesel pollution is only one thing affecting the environment. I've recently gone vegan so I'm contributing less to global warming that way. No cows producing CO2 for me to unnecessarily eat meat or drink milk.

I think your post went a bit off piste with the "killing children" part

just a moment, you do understand that the air pollution caused by driving is killing children, don't you. Every year, by the hundred, do you think this is just a throwaway phrase, rather than actual real children's lives ending becasue of the decisions people are making?

Also a few people have brought up that people in poor countries have cars and huge congestion issues. I think you will find that rates of car ownership per person are far lower, and that the congestion is more related to poor infrastructure and crowding than due to high levels of car ownership.

But I don't think that this argument is one the OP is likely to win for the simple reason that having a car is seen as the norm and an entitlement in this country. People on this thread have listed poor public transport on this thread on many occasions and I do agree, but there is very little incentive to improve it when this mentality prevails. Chicken and egg, really.

OP, I hope you live in a mud hut with no running water gas and electricity, use nothing plastic, grow all you own food and raise and slaughter all your own meat (assuming you’re not a vegetarian).

Because all those things, the production processes involved are far far more polluting on a global scale than cars

@clairetree but you aren't at your place of work for 16 hours day. You probably get a bus home at a reasonable time and continue to work at home ....when the kids are in bed etc. It's a very different story when you have to travel home after a 16 shift . This isn't comparable to your situation

Not sure which the Brits love more - cars or dogs, but i do know you can't criticise either

My car is essential for me to get to work. I live in a village and work in the next town. I start at 9 and the only bus to get me to the next town gets in at 9.30, I would then have a an hours walk from the bus station then walk down a 60mph country road with no paths. Where I work it is rural, so going by bus then walking would make me over 2 hours late for work. Wouldn’t be able to get an earlier bus as there isn’t one.

It’s ok saying everyone should get the bus but if you don’t live in a city centre or have regular buses it wouldn’t be possible for everyone.

I assume you don’t drive and take the bus everywhere

I can’t wait to go into work later this week and tell all the nurses, HCAs and doctors we should be commuting 1hr 15mins each way (on routes that don’t exist during the hours we need them) because 16 hours on our feet (it isn’t supposed to be 16 hours...it just always ends up that way) is fairly normal.

However petrol/diesel pollution is only one thing affecting the environment. I've recently gone vegan so I'm contributing less to global warming that way. No cows producing CO2 for me to unnecessarily eat meat or drink milk.

I think that is great, that is something I aspire to as well, but this thread was specifically about cars, I know there are lots of other environmental issues to discuss

Clairetree1 a fully electric car has 0gm emissions

i assume the op only ever buys locally sourced food, never flies and never orders of the internet....oh and never ever accepts a lift.