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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

999 replies

CocoDeMoll · 02/08/2018 20:53

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys? Grin

OP posts:
Pengggwn · 03/08/2018 11:03

including the Russians.

And the daleks.

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:18

I just don't recognise that scenario, Ennirem. Perhaps we move on different circles, but I encountered nothing but support for my decision to BF.

We very likely do, Penggwn. I'm a middle class person and had people on my side who had breastfed (although my mother herself formula fed), but I had my baby in a very deprived London borough with astonishingly low bf rates, and my partner's working class family had no history of bf and found the whole thing totally confusing and weird, particularly when I was struggling and all I heard was 'give her a bottle'. On my first night in hospital post c-section, when I was struggling to position baby over my wound the nurse I asked for help just tutted and said "well what's plan B for feeding then?" When I called up my HV in tears, she said "you've tried and you've failed, lots of women do, just send your husband out for formula." The only suport I had I had to hunt down from voluntary and online organisations (not to mention shelling out for an IBCLC to come round and diagnose tongue tie). I'm glad you had a different experience, but... you do realise your personal experience is not the only evidence you should accord any credence to in this world, or you're going to get a very skewed impression of reality?

And I don't think anybody is absolutely entitled to "share their struggles and discuss the challenges", irrespective of what other people want. Feeding is a very personal choice, and clearly provokes strong emotions (though it shouldn't). If a new mum talks about BF constantly to a group of FF mums, I am not surprised they stop wanting to hear about it. It might come across as she won't stop banging on about how much harder she is trying than they did, and perhaps that is why they "shut her down", because she is giving off a superior vibe?

I think it is pretty much universally acknowledged that in our current atomised society peer support and community can be a total lifeline to new mums to prevent them from feeling isolated. Are you basically saying that if a woman wants to be included in that sort of community she'd better damn well formula feed, or certainly not expect any sympathy or support if she has any issues with feeding?

In my group there was a lot of questions back and forth between mums about different bottle teats, prep of formula, whether it could be done in batches, queries about Perfect Prep, how and when to start cutting out night bottles etc etc. Why on earth should I not also have been able to talk about my experiences of cluster feeding, teething-related biting (short lived thank goodness), and other feeding matters without being basically told every time that I wouldn't have this problem if I weaned? I never told them they wouldn't have THEIR problems if they breastfed!

Child discipline is also a fraught issue. But imagine a mum coming to her group of friends with a concern/question about behaviour and being brushed off with a "well-behaved is best, hun!" Well yes obviously well-behaved is best, but well-behaved how? It's a damn silly catchphrase.

Or, perhaps they are better friends than that, and are just trying to reassure her that her baby is fine?

Well yes, I'm not saying people are evil cows going out of their way to make other mums feel shitty am I? Just that breastfeeding women are alreadty isolated by sheer paucity of numbers, if they are further marginalised by being effectively forbidden to even talk about breastfeeding with their peers in case it upsets or offends them they are being cut adrift - it's a social punishment for daring to breastfeed basically.

Queenofthedrivensnow · 03/08/2018 11:24

Judging - yes absolutely. Neoliberalism has made that a dirty word. We as parents, thankfully are judged about a multitude of things.

Pengggwn · 03/08/2018 11:27

Ennirem

Or you need to get better mates? Confused

Thursdaydreaming · 03/08/2018 11:34

Ennirem

Yes well it was way more pain and trouble than it was worth, for me. If you read my pp you would see I said I fully support bf mums getting all the support they need to bf for as long as they want. Whether that be 1 day or 3 years.

But it seems like some people desperately want the research to show that breast feeding is so much better, although it doesn't at this stage, perhaps to justify the suffering they have endured? That's why I think people are pressured. If it's so easy why do people say they are proud and it's an achievement? Why is it an achievement if it's easy and painless?

And I haven't met anyone in RL who said it wasn't painful at all. On this forum I have seen about five posts say that. I have seen hundreds if not thousands talking about the pain of it.

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:35

Or you need to get better mates? confused

So you're going to ignore every general point I've made and have a personal pop at me then?

Pengggwn · 03/08/2018 11:39

Ennirem

That's not a 'personal pop'. I am saying your friends and their behaviour towards you were the issue here. Nobody forced them to be (as you saw it) unsupportive.

Likewise, they are under no obligation to support you by replying to you in your preferred manner. If they said "fed is best", then that is simply their opinion, to which they are entitled.

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:41

If it's so easy why do people say they are proud and it's an achievement? Why is it an achievement if it's easy and painless?

Oh my goodness because (a) not everyone's journey is the same. For some it is straight away easy and painless, and they're happy it went so well for them; for others there are a difficult couple of weeks then all's jake, and they're proud they made it over the hump and happy they did as they now love feeding; for others its a massive struggle and can end up being a huge sacrifice of time and comfort - so of course they're proud of that effort to achieve their goals.

and (b) even if it is easy and painless, it is still something very unusual, and something not very well understood, in this country, so yes you can be proud just for the relative singularity of the experience. Someone can totally love running and do it for fun and still be proud of completing a marathon. I think people can take pride in all manner of achievements that are relatively meaningless to other people who don't prioritise that thing.

And I haven't met anyone in RL who said it wasn't painful at all. On this forum I have seen about five posts say that. I have seen hundreds if not thousands talking about the pain of it.

I did say I think most people have pain initially as they and baby learn how to do it. It's an instinct for baby, but it's a skill for mum, and both need practice to get it perfect. I always think of it as wearing in a shoe - it doesn't mean the shoe doesn't fit, your foot just needs to get used to it.

Queenofthedrivensnow · 03/08/2018 11:45

Happy to admit bf was really painful. But you get in with it. Lots of things are painful

Thursdaydreaming · 03/08/2018 11:46

So in other words it's different for everyone. Which is why bf suits some and ff suits others. That's all I'm saying. If bf is so painless and easy for you, you won't be affected by any Nestlé bots posting on here - which was the OPs concern if anyone remembers, she wasn't just asking which is best bf or ff.

MrSpock · 03/08/2018 11:46

I found breastfeeding painful and it was one of the reasons we stopped, but DS has a dodgy latch and couldn’t suck well.

Thursdaydreaming · 03/08/2018 11:48

Queenofthedrivensnow

I said that above, often painful things are worth doing. But pps are suggesting that posts that mention pain are just formula marketers posting lies and actually it's pain free for most. That isn't true.

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:49

But Penggwn, I'm not particularly talking about me or my friends. I'm talking in general about the idea breastfeeding mums make ff mums uncomfortable just by talking about breastfeeding, whereas no such accommodation is expected to be made the other way around.

Unlike you, I do not think my own, personal experience of the world around me should be the entire scope of my discussion or sole arbiter of my world view!

And yes, nobody owes anyone anything in this world, no-one is entitled to anyone else's time, kindness, tolerance or understanding; born alone, die alone etc. But I think as a society we do try to get a bit beyond that don't we? And look after each other a bit? Or is it literally just a case of "I'll live MY life over HERE; you piss off and live YOUR life over THERE, and lets do our upmost not to get in each others' way".

e.g. all the white children in a majority white class are not actually OBLIGED to play with the one black girl in the class, but I think in any decent school the teachers would try and intervene if they saw she was being excluded, or if they only let the black girl play with them if she never made any allusion whatsoever to the fact she was black, and try to facilitate a better situation. Would that be wrong, social engineering, expecting unreasonable things of the white kids?

DarthLipgloss · 03/08/2018 11:49

Totally agree. When i was bf my 4 month old my friends dcs were fascinated by it and thought i was amazing making 'milk come out my tummy'. Friend was horrified they were watching and told them to come away 'its rude'. Kids were 2 and 4...

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:50

So in other words it's different for everyone. Which is why bf suits some and ff suits others. That's all I'm saying. If bf is so painless and easy for you, you won't be affected by any Nestlé bots posting on here - which was the OPs concern if anyone remembers, she wasn't just asking which is best bf or ff.

Aaaand you've clearly read none of my posts. Which does beg the question why you're getting on my case.

zsazsajuju · 03/08/2018 11:50

It’s not a fecking achievement to breastfeed any more than to have a “natural” birth is an achievement. It’s nonsense that some women feel like they failed for not breastfeeding and all the rubbish about how it protects against autism and obesity is thrown in their face.

Fed is best, I’ve never seen any negativity on mumsnet towards breastfeeding- only for putting pressure on women to do so.

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:52

Also interested in another poster who seems to think the only thing anyone is allowed to care about is their own personal circumstances, and it is entirely out of bounds to give any consideration to wider social issues and their context.

Ennirem · 03/08/2018 11:54

Friend was horrified they were watching and told them to come away 'its rude'

Sad Things like that make me so sad. I know I know, her kids, she gets to decide what she wants them to see etc... but if those are little girls, their first experience of breastfeeding, and the emotion they will now attach to that experience is shame, either for having watched something 'rude', or having been 'rude' to have been watching... this is how it starts, in little increments, the denaturalisation and alienation of our own bodies.

zsazsajuju · 03/08/2018 11:56

Also I have to say the attacks on “formula” companies and making formula such a taboo product are probably what keeps the price (and their profits) up. If we were more open about it and stopped all the pressure on mums, supermarkets would likely enter the market and the price (and profits) would come right down. The price is huge for a tub of powdered milk and it’s nuts that supermarkets can’t even give special offers on it (in case it would cause mums to abandon breastfeeding cos of a 2 for 1 on formula).

Pengggwn · 03/08/2018 11:57

But Penggwn, I'm not particularly talking about me or my friends. I'm talking in general about the idea breastfeeding mums make ff mums uncomfortable just by talking about breastfeeding, whereas no such accommodation is expected to be made the other way around.

  1. Where are you getting this from, outside of your own experience?
  2. If it is the case that you made your friends uncomfortable, then that was because you made the choice to BF. They don't owe you conversation about it. I don't understand why you feel hard done to because a number of women didn't want to converse with you about something you didn't have in common.
  3. We are grown up, adult women. There are no teachers to mediate our relationships.

I have never read anything so entitled. YOU want to discuss X, so you think everyone else should sit while you bend their ear about it, not tell you what they actually think and lend you their unconditional support?

Please.

Your friends must have been very fed up.

zsazsajuju · 03/08/2018 11:57

It is rude I think. They’re you’re breasts - do you really want someone staring at them?

zsazsajuju · 03/08/2018 11:59

I agree with pengwn - if you’re going on about something your friends are not interested in, that’s why they didn’t want to engage. That’s life! Get new friends.

GreenMeerkat · 03/08/2018 12:01

@zsazsajuju are you for real? Biscuit

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2018 12:01

Just try going on a feeding thread on Mumsnet and talk about the advantages of bf. Go on, I dare you.

flashz · 03/08/2018 12:01

I'm glad you posted this OP. I was disturbed by the thread started by a 'mum' asking what she needed to pack as she had absolutely no intention of breastfeeding her third child despite being able to do it for her first two, not even for skin to skin or to give colostrum. I didn't say anything because it felt like it would be a pile on if I did. Majority of posters were horrified that hospitals don't provide formula for non medical reasons. Why should the NHS provide formula if a mum can't be bothered? By all means mums should have a 'choice' - as long as it's an informed choice - but the NHS is stretched as it is.