To believe that formula companies have PR agents working the BF/FF threads on here?

[CocoDeMoll]

They are a multi million pound set of companies that are invested in keeping Britain’s low breastfeeding rates down and keeping their profit margins up.

Any positives about breastfeeding seem to be shot down in flames on here.

So much pro formula and anti breastfeeding rhetoric.

They can easily afford to and have the best at the jobs be it lawyers, pr teams or spin doctors on their sides and they’re not exactly renounced for their ethics are they (nestle?!?!).

Or am I just getting a bit tied up in conspiracy therorys?

I was disturbed by the thread started by a 'mum' asking what she needed to pack as she had absolutely no intention of breastfeeding her third child

Is there a reason you put 'mum' in inverted commas?

zsazsajuju

Can I just say- I think I love you. Tell it like it is!

I think that anyone who goes on and on about how oppressed they are for BFing needs to take a long hard look at their privilege. If this is all you have the whine about then you need to get a hobby.

Women feed their children BF or FF to help them grow. Both are done very successfully. It is not a fucking competition. There are no (imaginary) golden brownie points for doing either. If you think there are then the problem is you.

Also, half the posters on this thread belong on Sanctimommy.

1) Where are you getting this from, outside of your own experience?

From you. You said that if a woman was talking about bf to formula feeding mums, they would feel like she was being braggy. So basically, they can talk about infant feeding but she can't. And from my contact with lots of other bf mums (via online groups mostly because as I say,we're a minority) and the isolation they have experienced as their circle of mum friends have stopped feeding early on and then become hostile to them because they haven't stopped. I'm sure it isn't everyone, but it is a theme which lots of bf women report.

2) If it is the case that you made your friends uncomfortable, then that was because you made the choice to BF. They don't owe you conversation about it. I don't understand why you feel hard done to because a number of women didn't want to converse with you about something you didn't have in common.

I reiterate. I am not talking about me.

3) We are grown up, adult women. There are no teachers to mediate our relationships.

True. So we need to be adults and mediate them for ourselves. Hopefully by the time we are our age we will have learned to overcome bigotry and display kindness without needing to be told. But perhaps it is not the case as widely as might be hoped, especially for certain highly emotive issues like this. Do you think there is any place for wider societal goals, or state intervention to encourage certain behaviours towards one another? Or are you fully libertarian?

The rest of your unkind screed I will just leave, as it's clear you are still misunderstanding the conversation I am having is not about me and my friends, it's about the context within which discussions of infant feeding take place and the relative proportions of bf to ff mums and how that has a role in shaping the discussion and marginalising certain women. But if you want to make it all about meeeee and what a bitch you think I am from your extensive knowledge of my life and relationships then knock yourself out.

They’re you’re breasts - do you really want someone staring at them?

Not remotely fussed if they do or they don't! Why should I be?

I agree with pengwn - if you’re going on about something your friends are not interested in, that’s why they didn’t want to engage. That’s life! Get new friends.

And once more for the cheap seats at the back - I'm not actually talking about me and my friends.

@greenmeekat

Maybe I should not have done that but this is the internet. Anyone can misrepresent themselves; she may not have been a mum but she might be.
After knowing the depths ff companies can steep to you never know..

From you. You said that if a woman was talking about bf to formula feeding mums, they would feel like she was being braggy.

I don't believe I said this. I believe I said (and I believe it to be the case) that someone who continuously goes on about how challenging she is finding BF to a group of women who have chosen to FF might come across as if she is bragging or preaching. I would say the same about a woman who won't stop talking about the benefits of formula to a group of BF mothers. Know your audience. People who have made an informed choice to do X don't generally want to listen to people harping about Y.

However, I cannot for the life of me understand how you have come to the conclusion that FF mums in general don't want to talk to BF mums about BF. I'm sure they want to talk about it the normal amount for people who aren't doing it. I am reasonably sure they don't want to hear about it in every conversation, for the sameness reason I don't want to talk about horse riding in every conversation, because it would bore me to death, not because I want to belittle people who ride horses.

I am sorry that you have found yourself in a minority, but this is really all that is going on, not "bigotry". You are not Nelson Mandela. Get over yourself.

@flashz ah so you were presuming she was a bot? That's fine I just wanted to make sure I was interpreting your post correctly!

Was worried you were insinuating she wasn't a real mum as she intended on FF!

Carry on....

It's commonly said that bf women need more support and I agree. But if they try to get it here, by posting about the problem they are having, apparently they are trolls and actually that problem doesn't exist. How is this helping women who are breastfeeding and want to continue?

@ennirem I was really interested in your post about how comments such as “Fed is best” might affect a BF mother. I hadn’t really thought of that (although I am BF) but I think it’s a good point.

It seems BF mothers who have had to really try to make it work feel their efforts are belittled if people say formula is nearly as good because it suggests there was no point in them persevering.

FF mothers feel narked when people say breast milk is better and thereby say they are doing less well for their child than those that BF.

Both of those POV are understandable and may explain why this debate always gets so heated.

flashz you were "disturbed" by a woman choosing to formula feed her baby?

I was disturbed by the thread started by a 'mum' asking what she needed to pack as she had absolutely no intention of breastfeeding her third child despite being able to do it for her first two, not even for skin to skin or to give colostrum. I didn't say anything because it felt like it would be a pile on if I did.

You want a medal for refraining from criticising her?

It seems BF mothers who have had to really try to make it work feel their efforts are belittled if people say formula is nearly as good because it suggests there was no point in them persevering.

Pps are saying that bf becomes really enjoyable and easy, so surely that's why they keep doing it. Even if formula was nearly as good or as good. So I don't see why people are obsessed with putting formula down. If it's easy and enjoyable surely you would still do it even if formula was slightly better (hypothetically - I'm not saying it is)

For me, bf my first was an achievement actually. We had a really hard first couple of months with tongue tie and illness, and I nearly gave up so many times. Luckily I had good support around me which so many women don't have. I got through it and am still bf 2 years later. Yes it would have been easier to give up during those first few weeks, and I probably would have been a happier mum for it. But going forward, parenting my child through bf has made me a calmer and happier mum and I'm glad I didn't give up initially.

I agree that mumsnet isn't a particularly supportive bf site, but no different to other general mum groups. I always direct users struggling with bf to Facebook groups that have bf peer supporters and people who will encourage them and give them helpful advice (rather than just saying 'fed is best').

I believe the issue with bf in the UK is absolutely lack of decent support for mothers and also that the previous generations haven't generally bf themselves so don't know how to support their children to bf.

Nah, no conspiracy. MN is pro-choice, as it should be. This upsets some BFs as BF is their greatest 'achievement' in life. They don't like having it pointed out to them that babies can also thrive on formula and that there are zero differences between BF & FF adults.

What always makes me cringe in this whole bf v ff crap is that nobody things it's acceptable to point out and criticise others and brag about their children's food diets.

I only feed my children and organic diet, no processed food. I know for a fact I am doing the best thing for them because I've done my research. I have never ever brought this up with my friends and never talk about it as its fucking boring.
Just like the people who go on about bf. Nobody fucking cares. And why are people proud of it? Im not proud of cooking for hours each week and spending money on organic food, it's what I do because I want to as a mother.

Its all just so fucking boring. And yes I bf mine but still wasn't worth talking about. Its feeding a baby. Let people get on with how they do it. I'm assuming all the bf preachers feed their children a brilliant diet yes? What's the point in obsessing over giving your children breast milk if you're going to to give nuggets and chips?

Oh and I don't judge others for what they feed their children, I just assume they probably know its not ideal to give junk food and just accept that because it's their choice. I make other choices my kids that I know arent the best but that's what fits well for our family.

I've no idea if there is a conspiracy/shilling by formula companies. Certainly not impossible although presumably illegal given the rules on promoting and advertising formula.

There are quite a few comments on this thread about the negligible difference between bf and ff, and about it being no one else's business or concern how a mother chooses to feed her baby.

To me however it's a public health issue, therefore it's an issue for society, not just for individuals. Why does the UK have such low bf rates? It's estimated that increasing bf rates by just two thirds (which would still put us behind many countries) would save the NHS £40m a year.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/09/breastfeeding-drive-could-save-nhs-40m-a-year

Some supporters of FF make it sound like a feminist 'pro-choice' issue and yet in Scandinavia where there is much more equality between the sexes, bf rates are far, far higher than here.

Anyway it's a shame the whole issue can't be debated more calmly as it's interesting and doesn't need to offend those who bf or those who ff. Can't we debate what's good for society as a whole rather than get hung up on defending our own choices?

@ennirem Props to you. You're saying everything I'm thinking more rationally and succinctly than I could put it!

Can't we debate what's good for society as a whole rather than get hung up on defending our own choices?

No. Because - in this instance - what is "good for society" is being defined as BF. And actually, my own choice is important to me. I am not going to give it up for the sake of "society". Why would I?

It is rude I think. They’re you’re breasts - do you really want someone staring at them?

Jesus Christ.

I’m pretty sure the 2 and 4 year old were just enjoying watching the baby feed, not simply standing there and staring at the woman’s breasts.

Saying that a happy mother doesn't always do her best for her baby? If a woman is pressured to BF when she isn't comfortable with it or doesn't feel that it is right for her is wrong. When you have just had a baby, you are often feeling the most fragile both physically & emotionally you have ever felt in your life, particularly if you have had a difficult Labour & birth. The last thing you need is someone messing with your head that you aren't doing your best for your baby. Whether a woman chooses to BF or FF it is her choice & no one else's. Nobody should be questioning a woman's choice of feeding method.

There will obviously be formula companies posing as mums on mumsnet (increasingly so as their advertising ability becomes more limited). The bigger question is does mumsnet know about them and do they profit in anyway...