To be unsurprised that Corbyn is still being called anti-semitic?

[crunchymint]

Corbyn has been quite happy over the years to work with those who are clearly anti-Semitic. And he continues to do so. Whilst at the same time saying that he condemns all forms of racism, recently changed to say he condemns anti semitism. Does he not realise yet that people judge him by his actions, not his broad statements which are pretty meaningless? And until he clearly shows in his actions that he condemns anti semitism, these allegations will continue?

@Dottierichardson

I agree. It's a complicated issue. Full of blurred lines / it's not black or white...

@BarbarianMum

Is thinking that Israel has a right to exist but not classify its Palastinian population as 2nd class citizens anti-zionist? No.

Is thinking it has a right to exist but not necessarily as a majority Jewish state? Depends on what you mean. Not recognising Israel's right to have their own immigration policies = not recognising Israel as a sovereign state. Yes, that's imo clearly anti-Zionist.

Or that it has a right to exist but not on all the territory currently held? Depends on what you actually mean with not on all the territory currently held.

Cheese But the point is that Boris Johnson is not the leader of the Conservative Party, and the explicit endemic anti-Semitism of the kind exemplified in the article on Barnet and Momentum is not in evidence. If Johnson were to become party leader and there was evidence of widespread anti-Semitism in his party that had not been dealt with then presumably that would also be called out. Indeed the Jewish Chronicle has reported on Johnson and Bannon.

In addition the review of anti-Semitism in Labour was in 2016 and many of the recommendations from that have not yet been implemented.

I am going to join Ghost and back away now.
I think all parties have racists in them, all have anti-semetics.
I certainly don't think the present Tory government is any better, propped up by right wing anti abortionists.
Can't believe you all think it was ok for our Home Secretary to claim a person was a holocaust denier.
Since 1979, we have lived under right of centre governments, the middle classes and upper classes, have got richer and stronger.
The working class and poor have been pissed on from a great height.

I won't defend my voting from you lot anymore.

I won't defend my voting from you lot anymore.

No one has asked you to. However when you come out with trope such as The Jewish issue is too small an issue for me to worry about then expect to be challenged in it.

The far right are on the rise throughout Europe. Yet the people who shout about anti semitism (which is low in the UK) do not seem to want to talk about Islamophobia or other forms of bigotry. You cannot be selective in your moral outrage, it makes one look disingenuous.

This is the EXACT argument that gets made on every thread about the Israel-Palestine conflict, asking why people are so quick to condemn Israel while remaining silent about the enormous human rights abuses in other Middle Eastern countries. I suspect that in that context you would be only too happy to dismiss it as 'whataboutery', or to explain that people don't have to know everything about global politics before they're allowed an opinion on a particular issue. Why not here?

Dottie - the right wing media hasn't been outspoken about Johnson and Bannon though, and whether Johnson is the leader or not, it deserves condemnation.

If Johnson ever is made leader of the Tories, I look forward to seeing the people he's met with in the past, dragged up like they have with JC.

Yet the people who shout about anti semitism (which is low in the UK) do not seem to want to talk about Islamophobia or other forms of bigotry.

I shout about antisemitism (which is rising rapidly in the UK, for your information), because it's what I know, it's what I experience and live with. It doesn't mean I don't give a shit about other kinds of bigotry, of course I do, and I will always add my voice of disgust to such bigotry. However it's hard to be as outspoken on it, when I have no experience of it.

You only have to google Bannon's name, nothing else, to get lots of media stories condemning him.

Boris Johnson has had lots of criticism and was widely criticised as Foreign Minister.

In his head, Corbyn believes so strongly that he can't possibly be anti-semitic that any accusation must be a politically motivated personal attack. So he can sit silent and do nothing when Mark Wadsworth abuses Ruth Smeeth or Willemson goes off on an angry rant about Jews making up instances of AS, because Wadsworth and Willemson are his friends and are speaking in his defence. He doesn't hear them being AS. All he hears is them sticking up for him.

His problem with AS is that he defines it in pre-war terms. Shylock, Fagin and the Holocaust. His obsession with the Palestinian cause and right to 'reclaim their land' makes it impossible to see anything from Israel's point of view. Justice for Palestine means returning to the status quo existing before the foundation of the Sate of Israel. The 1967 War on Israel by its Arab neighbours was a just war. Israel's annexation of territory to ensure defensible borders, e.g. the Golan Heights, wasn't defensive. It was Zionist colonial aggression.

The idea that 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust is any sort of justification for a Jewish homeland is a bit tricky. After all Palestine was a Jewish state for thousands of years before they were driven out. Palestine has never existed as a Palestinian state. The solution in his circles seems to be to minimise the Holocaust or water it down so it wasn't a Jewish thing. Corbyn and McDonnell put up an early-day motion to change the name of Holocaust Memorial Day to Genocide Day. Jackie Walker talks about the African Holocaust and wants to call THE Holocaust by a different name.

Israel is the enemy in Corbyn's eyes. It's very existence is a hostile act. Anyone who disagrees with him is also the enemy. Understandably, there's a lot of opposition to this line of thought from Jews. (Not just from Jews, I'm glad to say.) Incrementably, they've become the enemy, too. But Corbyn? Anti-semitic? Ridiculous idea. Not a racist bone in his body, blah, blah, blah.

This isn't going to go away. If I were Jewish, I'd be a lot more worried about Corbyn than the odd Troy dinosaur trying to keep me out of the golf club.

I've skimmed the thread and thought about this issue for a while. I'm prepared to believe that JC is anti-Semitic. I condemn anti-semiticism. I am also uncomfortable with Israel's incursions re Gaza and the West Bank. Having said that, can someone please summarise for me exactly what evidence there is that JC is AS? I don't quite understand it and I need it clearly spelt out with no innuendo or allusions to assumed knowledge about events.

YetAnotherSpartacus Basically Corbyn happily sits there while others say anti Semitic things and never challenges them. Defended a graffiti artist who had painted an anti Semitic graffiti that was removed by a Local Authority (MN removed from the thread the photo of this graffiti as it is very clearly anti Semitic), talks at events that are anti Semitic and has hosted people who are clearly anti Semitic.

@samG76 - so only an observant Jew is a real Jew. You know that is nonsense and offensive.
And for those interested in hearing from other Jewish people, here is a list of some groups condemning the equation of criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
Academia4equality (Israel)
Arbeter Ring/Workmen’s Circle, Southern California
Boycott from Within (Israeli citizens for BDS)
Coalition of Women for Peace (Israel)
Collectif Judéo Arabe et Citoyen pour la Palestine (France)
Dayenu: New Zealand Jews Against Occupation (New Zealand)
Een Ander Joods Geluid (A Different Jewish Voice) (The Netherlands)
Een Andere Joodse Stem – Another Jewish Voice (Flanders, Belgium)
European Jews for a Just Peace
Free Speech on Israel (UK)
Gate48 – critical Israelis in the Netherlands
Independent Jewish Voices (Canada)
Independent Jewish Voices (UK)
International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network
Italian Network of Jews Against the Occupation
Jewish Anti-Fascist Action Berlin (Germany)
Jewish Socialists’ Group (UK)
Jewish Voice for Democracy and Justice in Israel/Palestine (Switzerland)
Jewish Voice For Labour (UK)
Jewish Voice for Peace (USA)
Jewish Voice for Peace members in London (UK)
Jews Against Fascism (Australia)
Jews against the Occupation (Australia)
Jews for Justice for Palestinians (UK)
Jews for Palestinian Right of Return (USA)
Jews of Color & Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews in Solidarity w/ Palestine (USA)
Jews Say No! (USA)
JIPF – Judar för Israelisk Palestinsk Fred (Sweden)
Jüdische Stimme für gerechten Frieden im Nahost e.V. (Germany)
Junts, Associació Catalana de Jueus i Palestins (Catalonia, Spain)
Los Otros Judíos (Argentina)
Manchester Jewish Action for Palestine (UK)
Quebrando Muros – Judeus Brasileiros Pela Descolonização da Palestina (Brazil)
Scottish Jews Against Zionism
SEDQ Network- A Global Jewish Network for Justice
South African Jewish Voices for a Just Peace (South Africa)
South African Jews for a Free Palestine (South Africa)
Union des progressistes juifs de Belgique (Saint-Gilles, Belgium)
United Jewish People’s Order (Canada)
Union Juive Française pour la Paix (France)
Boston Workmen’s Circle, Center for Jewish Culture and Social Justice

Sorry - its very existence and Tory not Troy. Must preview.

Wizard - you know full well that no one is denying anyone the right to criticise the actions of the State of Israel. The anti-semitism in this pro-Palestinian faction of the left goes way beyond that.

I don't think Corbyn is, in all likelihood, anti- Semitic. But the persistent framing of this whole as an 'attack' on him, and his ineffectual handling of the issue so it has rumbled on and on has made him look weak, and his supporters look paranoid.

He's a 'nice guy', a veteran backbench protesting MP, and he did that very well. He's shown that he has very little leadership ability on the main stage, and at a time when the opposition should be making hay with the dreadful state of the government, it's in disarray.

As much as at one point I would have liked him to do well, I think time has revealed him to be not much cop at all, and his enthusiastic supporters really need to reconnect with reality and acknowledge that he is never going to achieve anymore in this position.

Peak Corbyn was some time ago.

Wizard - I've not mentioned observance at all, have I? I've met vast numbers of Jews at the school gate, taking my kids to activities, summer camps (not Jewish ones),but have never come across any of the people who sign Guardian letters about how ashamed they are of Israel.

The UK groups you mention are mainly above are mainly the same people recycled. A quick search shows the same activists involved with each. At a rough guess, what proportion of them do you think have children who identify as Jews?

Please be clearer re what others have done and why Corbyn should be responsible for speaking out. I'm not doubting you. I'm just confused.

extreme left and extreme right both evil fuckers

Yes 100%.. very similar to each other vile and violent.

FloralBunting sgree with your post.

user

You made s truly shocking remark upthread. I expect if you had substituted Jew for black or Asian you would have been reported.

You are flouncing off because you know your remark was totally abhorrent snd the proper thing you should do is apologise for it.

Spartacus There are examples on the thread. If you are sitting in a small meeting and someone says something racist or anti Semitic do you challenge it or say nothing? I think it is racism 101 to challenge it. Corbyn never ever challenges anti Semitic remarks in these situations. Even when he is hosting the meeting or is an interviewer, he says nothing. And anti Semitic remarks include comments that allege on insinuate Jewish people are a rich powerful group who work for their own interests - a Jewish cabal. The blood libel, the idea that Jewish people are rich and greedy, and comparing Jewish people to Nazis.

I think among Corbyn s many character flaws is he is so admiring of anyone who is espousing a cause or a protest he is too excited to really listen and evaluate or challenge that view.

It’s the marching and the shouting he enjoys whatever it’s about.

That’s why he finds himself on many platforms with terrorists, bigots, terrorist sympathisers, and has allowed the militant TRAs to get their way to a ridiculous extent and marginalise women.

Basically he has an old blokes body with a teenagers brain. No maturity has taken place and no filter or sense of critical thinking.

Read this by Jonathan Freedland in the guardian the other day:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/jewish-anger-labour-listen-antisemitism-opinion

^ "But the IHRA itself, properly applied, allows plenty of scope. You can, if you want, say everything the state of Israel has done since its birth has been racist. All it prohibits is branding as a racist endeavour “a state of Israel” – the principle that Jews, like every other people on Earth, should have a home and refuge of their own. And if you want to make a serious analogy with the historic past, you can do that too, because the IHRA allows for context. Given all that, when Jews hear that the IHRA is not good enough, so that Labour had to draw up a code of its own, they wonder: what exactly is it that Labour wants to say about u^s"

He summarised the drawing up on the code as

"It’s as if Labour unilaterally decided to rewrite a widely accepted set of guidelines on sexual harassment, in defiance of opposition from every women’s organisation and without consulting them, and delegating the task to a majority male sub-committee, and then expected women to applaud the new document"

Banana, that is a brilliant article.

Corbyn is nothing but an agitator and a back bench rebel who will jump on any cause that has an anti west sentiment

He is incredibly lazy too wtf is he doing apart from attending rallies making predictable crowd pleasing speeches and his followers indulge his now over inflated ego by cheering wildly as though he has made some profound statement

He isn’t nice he is just like McDonnell and Livingston he just comes across better

The Jewish issue is too small an issue for me to worry about

Yes, which is what people have said for centuries... A silent majority not caring when a minority was targetted.

The rise of the far right, leftwing anti-Semitism and imo extremely selective outrage in regards to Israel seem to clearly increase the importance of Israel imo...

Especially when we consider Europe's rather horrible track record in regards to Judaism / Jewish minorities...

@bananafish81

Thank you for posting this article.