Demonisation of formula!!!

[Summertimehaze]

Don’t know if anyone watched the Dispatches programme last night on breastfeeding? The more I think about that programme the more annoyed I’m getting!!! The demonisation of formula really doesn’t help mothers who struggle to breastfeed and have to start using formula or even as a top up!! Most mothers want to do what’s right for their babies and know that breast is best. But some mums just can’t do it and so formula literally becomes a lifesaver. I’m sick of seeing mums feel so guilty about it and letting their children bloody starve because they surely can’t give them the evil formula!!!!!! The programme basically tells a new mum that it’s really tough to breastfeed, there is no support, they will be judged BUT formula is not an option!!! Grrrrrrrrr 😡. AIBU

@RidingMyBike babies born at term can still have various traumas which can make feeding tricky but it's not always insurmountable with the right support

OP which bit of the this programme did you feel demonised formula?

Why are Swedish women so different to British ones?

Oh for crying out loud. It didn't shame formula. It promoted breastfeeding. There's a big difference. Not every attempt to promote breastfeeding in this country is an underhand stab at FF mum's.

@Cyw2018 No, colostrum harvesting was never mentioned - despite them knowing I'd be induced because of diabetes and baby likely to have low blood sugar after birth. And I had other health problems too. I was just told that the diabetes meant it was even more vital I exclusively bf!

@IfYouDontImagineNothingHappens
Yes, I know. And I know it's often not insurmountable. But telling women they'll all be able to bf exclusively and that problems are incredibly rare (which is what went on at the hospital i gave birth in) is setting them up to fail.

The point is that breastfeeding is NOT always better for mother and baby, and in a lot more cases than we are led to believe. Babies admitted to SCBU and NICU because they are losing weight and dehydrated. Mothers developing PND and PNA as a result of issues with breastfeeding. Mothers not producing enough milk because they are stressed and not eating or drinking. Babies exhausted because they are feeding and feeding but not satisfied. If you are looking at 100ml of breast milk vs 100ml of formula milk then - duh - one is 'better' nutritionally than the other. But that's not how it works. It doesn't arrive in isolation. The mental and physical health of mother and baby are sometimes much better served by switching to formula.

What does it matter if bf rates in the UK are low? Ff babies are quite healthy.

Ifyoudont... I will admit I watched the programme having been scarred by not being able to feed my baby. I don’t think the programme intentionally tried to demonise formula but it’s part of a culture of looking down on it. I do think this is location based tho as some people don’t seem to think women get demonised for using formula! I’m south east in the UK and I feel it acutely.

I thought the bit where they put all the people with the written boards with the benefits of BM and then asked them to leave if they weren’t in formula ... and also the scientist was goady ... when she said something along the lines of “if only women knew what’s in BM then why wouldn’t they chose it” ... as if it’s that simple. The programme intself was not even that well made ... there was no conclusion. I honestly thought it was practically saying BF is hard, many women struggle to do it, there is no support BUT don’t use formula!!!

It also made me wince when the Dr said BM could prevent “decades” of disease and ill health. I just think it’s quite scaremongering and obviously this approach is not working.

It's a wonder the human or rather British race, survived.

Most women can breastfeed and so can most babies.

Otherwise, why do other countries have much higher rates than us?

Something is either wrong in this country or the British are different somehow.

People who are saying why are some taking it personally etc are forgetting what an absolute huge life changing event being a mother is. I have this brand new baby and I have already failed her ... she’s not even a year old!! What have i potentially caused her?? Illness? Disease? It’s just too much with all the hormones and pressure of being a new mum

@manaftermidnight Thanks for your support. I would feel guilt whichever approach I took. Guilt trying to bf as I may be starving my DS2 Guilt whilst ff as I understand the added health benefits of bf (which is why I gave it such a long time with DS1) but I also understand fed is better than starved, and that my mental health also matters.
I do think programs such as the one the other night do add to the guilt ff parents feel. I simply wish that the pros and cons of both sides could be outlined in one show/news article etc, rather than it always having to be one vs the other. I think the being physically unable to bf ie not producing enough milk does happen but for a small number of women (and I wonder if this was my issue - even pumping a couple of oz would take 45mins after 3mths of bf), because when you've tried everything to increase supply, had the latch checked numerous times etc and no HCP can find a reason for your DS wasting away, what other explanation is there? I imagine in other countries babies may die from starvation but because they're eg third world countries people blame other reasons rather than the mothers milk supply eg the Mum wasn't getting the right nutrients or the child died from an infection which, had they had more reserves, they may have survived etc.

@Ennirem I don't think they should be demonised for producing follow on milks to circumvent a rule prohibiting advertising of from birth formula. They're companies who need to make a profit after all. I didn't think the evidence against the health claims was covered in enough detail to attack the companies either. With all other factors which can impact an individuals health I imagine it's difficult to prove that either bf or ff is the only thing which causes eg later life obesity. My DS1 was on prescription formula and my GP swapped him to the follow on version at 6mths. I asked about the "follow on milk purely being created for advertising purposes" rumour, and he said he'd never heard of it and was following NHS guidelines for prescribing this formula.
And yes I'm choosing to ff DS2 but that's because it became clear I couldn't with DS1 (despite the masses of support, which the dispatches show blamed for people stopping).

@CardinalCat I must politely disagree with you on this point. My DS1 was dairy intolerant so unable to move to cows milk at 6mths. Also, had I moved to cows milk at 6mths I would have had to start giving additional vitamins which are already included in the follow on formula. I can't comment on the differences between from
birth formula and follow on formula but both provide sufficient nutrition for a child to survive, so to say there is no nutritional benefits is like saying you may as well just feed your child water (apologies if that's not what you meant, but that's how I interpreted your statement).

@Ifeelshit Apologies if my reference to my son's weight gain annoyed you. I wasn't trying to be all "ff babies are bigger so better" because that would be a load of shite. It was more to demonstrate the negative impact my perseverance at bf was having on his weight gain and health (he was admitted to hospital with a fever as they feared he didn't have the reserves to deal with it) and he was dropping further and further away from the 0.4th centile (there are no centile lines below otherwise I'm sure he'd have dropped below at least 2 or 3 of them).

What I have learnt from this thread is everyone has a different story and that we need to LISTEN to one and other. I’ve been enlightened that some BF mums feel persecuted and that they have to justify their choice. I’ve learnt some BF mums feel like they have worked hard to BF and it wasn’t easy and it was a sacrifice. I’ve learnt that some mums just couldn’t do it for various reasons... I’ve learnt that some mums have BF and hated it ... others have had really good experience... some mums have been made to feel so guilty about giving formula ... some haven’t ... some have felt the absolute pressure to BF and not give formula at any cost ... the list goes on. All of these are people’s REALITIES. We shouldn’t question ... or try to put are two penny’s worth in on their stories ... I just wish people could just try to empathise with everyone.

Our two pennies 🤦‍♀️

@RidingMyBike That is really crap for you, you were clearly let down.

Interestingly, seeing as a large part of the focus in the dispatches documentary was about breastfeeding support (or lack of), what is the set up in different regions (NHS and voluntary).

I'll go first in the region of Wales where I live we have:

NHS Ante natal classes (x4 one session on feeding)
Positive Birthing movement weekly groups (including breastfeeding session), Dads encouraged to come too (with a good turn out).
Local breastfeeding support groups, at a variety of locations, with one somewhere in the region pretty much every week day, and a health visitor led one somewhere every week.
Peer supporters (training either self funded, or fundraised for)
One tongue tie specialist for 2 counties (was on annual leave when 2 of my friends needed her).
Weekly health visitor drop in groups and clinics.
Peer supporter led facebook group (very active).
And I had an excellent, well informed, and lovely community midwife

I know I have it good where I am, how bad (or good) are other areas?

Gizzymum

I'm sorry but it all depends on what you call demonising. As far as I understand it the doc was just exposing the little known fact that there is no requirement whatsoever to feed your child follow on milk at 6 months +, and the whole point of making it was to circumvent advertising and promotion restrictions which were put in place to prevent formula companies conducting entirely amoral marketing campaigns which resulted in poor women in third world countries turning to formula over BM without either the money to pay for it or the facilities to safely prepare it. You can argue that these laws are unreasonable and restrictive; but it remains the case that they are the law and the formula companies are deliberately flouting them with the creation and marketing of follow on milks. Whether or not you thing breaking the spirit of the law is acceptable or not, pointing out that that is what they're doing is not "demonising"; it is journalism.

And the whole "they are companies and need to make a profit" justification could be used to allow absolutely unrestricted advertising of all kinds across the board. Are you that much of a libertarian?

Summertime whilst I applaud the sentiment, and I absolutely think the starting point should be that we should listen without judgement to people's perceived realities, we cannot allow how people feel about infant feeding dictate the public health discussion. In the same way that we can't allow the naturalistic fallacy to be the basis for breastfeeding promotion (not everything 'natural' is inherently superior) we can't allow a discussion around population level health benefits to be neutered on the basis of "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice". We can't just accept every woman's perception of the "reality" of her experience and leave it to stand unchallenged if it flies in the face of the known facts and the biology of breastfeeding (e.g. "my milk didn't come in and had to give my baby formula on day 2", "my baby was allergic to cow's milk in my BM so I had to stop bf and put him on soy formula") because no matter how sincerely they believe that was what they had to do and they "physically couldn't breastfeed" it's not true, an allowing those statements to stand uncritically sabotages the next woman who faces those challenges' journey, when she's awake alone and worried in the night Googling "why won't my newborn stop feeding?", or sitting in the doctor's surgery being told her milk is making her vomiting, rashy, miserable baby sick and he needs soy formula when actually diet changes could allow her to continue to bf and save her tons of money - they need the real facts and to know the real reasons people "physically can't breastfeed", how rare or otherwise they are, and also what the other common problems are and what solutions there are that they can try. They need to know the truth. Not the individual's perceived reality, but the actual facts of the matter.

On th individual level, we should be kind and respectful to each other and not challenge each other unnecessarily or cause each other unnecessary or unhelpful pain; but in public forums, and in public health, we have to dispassionately focus on facts. Surely you would agree with that?

People who are saying why are some taking it personally etc are forgetting what an absolute huge life changing event being a mother is. I have this brand new baby and I have already failed her ... she’s not even a year old!! What have i potentially caused her?? Illness? Disease? It’s just too much with all the hormones and pressure of being a new mum

I think people forget this^^ and it's vital.

I am also about the tiny percentage who can't bf guff. If 800,000 babies are born in the UK each year then 1% means that 8k women per year really can't. That isn't my definition of rare.

@enirem I absolutely agree with you. And the examples you give are definitely where formula doesn’t have to be the first resort. But there also times where babies just won’t latch ... I had every man and his dog manoeuvre my LO around my breast and try to shovel my nipple in their mouth... but to no avail.

I agree that medical professionals should discuss the possibility of mothers cutting things from their diet and that colostrum in the first two days should suffice. Formula shouldn’t be an easy “go to”. But am I naive to think that most health professionals would try to support mum with their breastfeeding?

I still think the key here is to LISTEN to mum’s stories ... as we are the reality.

I shouldn't have used the word 'choice' in my comment earlier. I know it's not really a choice for most mums, the way feeding DD a burger was not a choice at this point of time for me (I was feeling dizzy due to pregnancy, DP was out for work late and I couldn't cope with another tantrum). But I wouldn't argue with the fact that a healthy homemade meal would have been better.

The documentary was not demonising FF. If anything, it was defending those mums who weren't able to BF despite the fact they wished to, the majority of them due to lack of support.

Am I naive to think most health professionals would try to support mum with their breastfeeding?

Not at all naive, but in my experience health professionals are busy and stressed, overworked and underpaid, and they want to do whatever will get you off their docket as quickly as possible. This may mean telling you "breast is best" and leaving it at that (unhelpful) or it may mean shoving you towards the formula at the first sign of trouble (also unhelpful). It's great you recieved such a lot of focussed support with your difficulties and a real shame it didn't help you; but plenty of women would have been helped by such intensive support from a lactation consultant, or even from being told there WAS such a thing as a lactation consultant,and got nothing of the kind. The provision and support is patchy, varying wildly from trust to trust and even from HCP to HCP. I've lost count of the number of bf mums I know who have come out of HV assessments or GP appointments fuming because every problem or concern they have about themselves or their child is attributed to breastfeeding and no further investigation given.

@thereareflowersinmygarden

"It's a wonder the human or rather British race, survived.
Most women can breastfeed and so can most babies.
Otherwise, why do other countries have much higher rates than us?
Something is either wrong in this country or the British are different somehow."

OK, so if you look at countries where BF (and EBF) rates are very high, typically they are countries with absolutely colossal neonatal mortality rates and also maternal mortality rates. like much of sub-saharan Africa - very different to the UK in the distribution of risk factors for BF problems, but also many difficulties with BF would be "hidden" by the high mortality rates caused by other things. So substantial bf problems are not going to be visible.

Also typically even in those cultures even if you see 99% of women bf'ing, they are not EBFing. supplementation is common. it's just that unsafe fluids are used - but in the UK formula is safe, so why not support safe supplementation when it's needed.

Even in norway, 74% BF at 6 months or something, but the EBF rate is barely higher than the UK's (7% vs 1%). EBF rates in all high income countries are very very low.

There are a LOT of risk factors that are affected by demography that can factor into physiological problems with milk production. eg, maternal age can affect it (and in rich countries women tend to have babies later). Delayed onset of milk is hugely affected by parity - much more common for first birth, less common for subsequent. Therefore in countries where most women have many babies (eg 4, 5, 6 babies on average) this problem will factor out across the population to be a much smaller % of women affected. Whereas in the UK birth rate is very low, hence a larger proportion of all births are affected by a delay in the milk coming in. If the maternity culture does not support supplementation, then a lot of these mums will just stop BF altogether because they think they have "broken the rules" about how to BF (ie, they are meant to be exclusively BF not BFing with supplementation when needed).

Many many other factors. it is scientifically rubbish to say oh, 99% of women can BF and if the UK has low rates it cannot possibly reflect biological factors and must all be psychosocial. (Although these explanations are very fashionable).

PS: throughout prehistory, child mortality rates were around 50%. Imagine giving birth to 10 children, (no contraception) and 5 of them dying before they were 5?

PPS: change your phrasing to:

t's a wonder that humans survived.
If childrens' immune systems were so awful as the need for vaccines against measles, polio etc suggests, we would have just died out!

@Ennirem Whilst I'm not entirely up on my advertising law, I'd imagine there are different restrictions in place in the UK than there are in, for example, third world countries. I don't feel the advertising done by formula companies in the UK is amoral - the ads certainly don't appear to try to convince anyone that formula is better than breast etc, and if they found a way to advertise their product which fits within UK regulations I'm not going to complain. I can't comment on what the formula companies do abroad as I don't know enough about it, however if what you say is true, yes their behaviour in those situations is disgusting.

I note your comment about women saying they "physically couldn't breastfeed" and you appear to assume by this they mean their milk wasn't in by day 2 (which would be perfectly normal) or that they were persuaded to switch to soy formula due to the baby being dairy intolerant. If this is the sort of information/advice your friends/relatives have received then yes the support given to them was poor indeed. However, if this is all hearsay and you don't know anyone who experienced such issues and got such bad advice, perhaps you could be a bit more compassionate to those who felt it was a physical impossibility to bf (or at least ask them why they felt this way rather than assuming it was bad advice). However, having been through many issues the support given in my area was exemplary. DS was dairy intolerant - I was given advice on how to change my diet to accommodate this. My milk supply was low - I was encouraged to pump, babymoon, eat oats and take fenugreek to boost supply, had latch checked numerous times (none of which worked for me and I had an allergic reaction to fenugreek).

@Cyw2018 I'm in the north of England and feel the support for bf in my town is fab!

• infant feeding support team (including peer supporters and lactation consultants) with groups daily in different locations in the town run by the NHS

-fb group for the infant feeding support team -midwife specialising in bf in the hospital -tongue tie specialists in the hospital (DS had his snipped on a weekend the day after he was born) -HV drop in clinics daily at different times and locations around the town -Access to midwife support for 28 days post birth -NCT baby and bumps group (you don't need to be a member to attend) -NHS antenatal courses with one focusing purely on BF. -There's also a bf friendly accreditation scheme where bf friendly shops etc have a sticker in the window etc and are listed on a website to encourage people to bf out in public (not sure if this is a national or local initiative tbh).

Gizzymum

The examples I gave were specific examples from people I know, and were given not as an assumption that all women who say "couldn't physically bf" are in one or the other of those categories, but when mums say that these reasons, or ones like them, meant they physically couldn't breastfeed, those statements need to be challenged because they spread misinformation. If a woman just says "I physically couldn't feed", or if as with the OP of this post, that she tried everything and recieved loads of support and it just didn't work, I of course don't start questioning that or telling them they should have tried xyz.

Re the formula companies there was a very good expose recently about formula companies are doing to women and babies in the Philippines and it made very grim reading. Even if you believe the harm they can do in a country like the UK is minimal, surely it is still worth questioning the virtue of supporting and facilitating international conglomerates whose behaviour towards more vulnerable populations is profoundly unethical?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/27/formula-milk-companies-target-poor-mothers-breastfeeding

Here's the one, I mentioned it upthread. It really upset me.

This is how formula used to be advertised in the UK (it was the modern, scientific choice that was better than breast milk). It's why we have tight advertising laws now, and in my view they should be tighter because it is clear that lots of women find the follow on milk message confusing.

South Africa is planning to force companies to use plain packaging to stop subliminal advertising of formula.

I haven't watched it, not sure I could cope with it!
I was in that 1% that couldn't feed, genuinely couldn't. Spent two days in hospital hooked up to machines, being prodded, poked and milked like a cow to produce about an ounce. It was horrific and my baby dehydrated. As far as I'm concerned formula saved her life and I won't hear a bad word against it.

As an aside I am sure if new mums weren't booted out of hospital within hours of giving birth things may be a bit different. My mum was in for a week learning how to feed, now there just isn't that support.