Wheelchair vs pram on bus

[Thankfuckitsfriday1]

disclaimer
This has never happened but AIBU to ask what you would do in this scenario if it occurred? (Will happen possibly in the next year while son is at pre school)

Ill be taking my son to pre school on the bus and back 3 times a week. There’s only 2 spaces on the bus for buggy’s or 1 buggy and 1 wheelchair and in normal circumstances I’d always always say the buggy gets folded or I would get off.

But my sons autisic and he sits on his buggy board with my daughter in the pram. He won’t get off to sit elsewhere but loves the bus if he’s sat there nicely.

If a wheelchair were to get on and need the space I was in.. AIBU to say no? It would be on the way to my sons special needs pre school and he’s also disabled? Or would it be a wheelchair trumps pram no matter what situation?

I am autistic and say that wheelchair trumps pram, every time.

Should OP just buy a wheelchair to satisfy jobs worths?

Terfsup can you explain why one disability trumps another? (we're talking morally not legally here). My friend cannot travel without her special needs buggy. It cannot be folded and her son would have a massive meltdown if forced to leave a bus. If she can't use that space she can't travel (and nor can her other children who wouldn't be able to attend school ). Why should she not have priority over someone who is in a wheelchair who may be able to fold it or easily wait for the next bus. No one is saying she should always have priority but to say never is quite clearly wrong to anyone with an ounce of empathy.

While there has to be a wheelchair space on the bus it doesn't have to be occupied by a wheelchair user it is occupied by anyone who needs it.

And no, it's not stupid that wheelchair always trumps buggy in the damn WHEELCHAIR SPACE.

Well, I wouldn't say it's "stupid", but it's not the legal position. The following is from the Supreme Court's judgment in Paulley:

47. As to an absolute rule, it is true that there is nothing in the primary or secondary legislation which supports the notion that the space allocated for wheelchair-users is to be exclusively used by such individuals, although it is clear that that was, in general terms at any rate, the primarily envisaged use. ...

48. ... once one considers the effect of an absolute rule in relation to the use of spaces on buses, it is not difficult to conceive of circumstances in which it could be unreasonable to expect a non-wheelchair user to vacate a space and, even more, to get off the bus even though the space is needed by a wheelchair user. As Lewison LJ said (perhaps somewhat optimistically in some cases) in para 48 of his judgment, “[a]lmost by definition, a person who refuses to vacate the wheelchair space when asked to do so [to accommodate a wheelchair-user] will have a reason which (at least to them) seems to be a reasonable one”. Thus, it might be reasonable for a person to refuse to vacate the space, if he or she was disabled and needed the space to store disability aids, or was elderly and infirm, or was accompanying infants, especially, for instance, if that person had an urgent hospital appointment, or would find it physically very difficult to alight from the bus. Or the space might be occupied by a vulnerable person who only felt safe in the space and could not reasonably be required to leave the bus in an unfamiliar or unsafe location. Of course, in some of these types of circumstances, it might be possible for the non-wheelchair user to move elsewhere on the bus, but that may be impossible in some cases, or it may only be possible if third parties, not occupying the space, alighted from the bus, which may be unacceptably difficult or even impossible to arrange.

Anyway, it sounds like the OP and a wheelchair user can occupy the space at the same time, so there should not be any problems in theory. I think that the real problems would arise if the OP and another buggy user are in the space, the OP reasonably says that she cannot move because of her DS's autism, and the other passenger is a dick and says "Well if she's not folding her buggy then I don't see why I should have to!". But hopefully with the right communications with the bus company such a situation can be prevented.

And as a general rule I of course would agree that morally able-bodied people should give up their space in the wheelchair area even if it means disembarking and catching another bus, regardless of the legal position.

but the latest ruling now enshrines that wheelchair users take priority if i was not away for the weekend i would get the ruling for you.

Basically the ruling says the driver may not be able to physically force you off the bus if you fail to remove your pram / luggage from the space they are allowed to refuse to drive further until you comply or get off the bus.

A pram (not a special needs pram) or luggage or old person on sticks or if people want to stand there rather then in the middle these do NOT take priory over a wheelchair user and in no circumstances should we expect the wheelchair user to be forced to not get on as a first come first serve basically means a wheelchair user is unlikely to get a look in as there are simply far more prams then wheelchair users.

If you going to special needs school you will get transport . Phone the council.

And start teaching you son to sit on a seat .

can i just say that sometimes a wheelchair user might also have autism or a learning disability. that would make it very hard for them to be refused the wheelchair space and have to wait for another bus.
the ops child is not using a wheelchair or a sn buggy, so could be asked to move. what I think the op needs in place is the right to trump another buggy/pram user to use the buggy place.

Joboy clearly has never come into contact with a child who has autism 🤦🏻‍♀️ "teach them to sit on a seat" ... don't work like that!!!

PitterPatterOfBigFeet sn buggies are equivalent to wheelchairs. A buggy board isn't.

Would it be reasonable for someone to sit on the floor in the wheelchair space because that is where they feel safe on the bus? I can see a lot of reasons why it would feel safe but it wouldn't make it ok to do it if a wheelchair wanted the space.

I understand your problem and sympathise OP but I believe wheelchair always trumps pram.

The pram isn't even your son's so even if you did buy a badge for it people are not likely to believe it is official.

I think you sound sensible and sensitive to the needs of wheelchair users. I also agree it won't come up often.
If there is another buggy user you will have to explain and hope they are helpful, I would move for you. I am sure most would.

I think visit to bus is a really good idea.

Basically the ruling says the driver may not be able to physically force you off the bus if you fail to remove your pram / luggage from the space they are allowed to refuse to drive further until you comply or get off the bus.

That's actually the same Supreme Court judgment that I quoted above (Paulley). It's complicated to explain but basically the court said that:

• legally wheelchair users do not have an absolute priority to the space;

• Bus companies have duties to make reasonable adjustments for wheelchair users so that they can use the bus services, but it would not be reasonable for bus companies to required to physically force non-disabled people who are in the wheelchair space off the bus if a wheelchair user wanted to get on;

• It would however be reasonable for bus companies to get their drivers to do more than just politely ask if the non-disabled passenger will move, and then immediately give up if they refuse. They can sternly tell them to move, threaten to not drive further if they do not move etc. (although these are in reality likely to be fairly empty threats).

Anyway, that case concerned an able-bodied mother and child and a disabled wheelchair user. In the case of 2 disabled passengers the bus company would owe reasonable adjustment duties so it's more complicated (although as I keep mentioning, thankfully it seems that the OP can occupy the space at the same time as a wheelchair user, so she should be able to remain without causing any big problems).

Sorry that should have been "would owe reasonable adjustment duties to both of them..."

Melonscoffer - we will be getting a special needs buggy when he’s too big for the buggy board seat as hopefully my daughter will be old enough to walk by then but being honest I haven’t really thought that far ahead.. I know I should but I honestly don’t know how il leave the house with a 4/5 year old in a buggy and a 2/3 year old walking or possibly a carrier (although I have a bad back). We got this buggy before we knew he has autism.

Thank you Allie your responses, given me a lot to think about.

I think it’s also the anxieties have me imagine all sorts of scenarios as we usually only get the bus when it’s off peak but we will be getting it at 8.30 and 3.30 3 days a week. So it will always be very busy as a lot of people get buses in our city.

We had 2 meltdowns on the bus today regardless of buggy board and it was awful so just dreading September!

And when we spoke to he pre school we were told he can walk and doesn’t usually get distressed on the bus so doesn’t need transport yet however if that changes and he can’t handle the bus we will be eligible for transport provided by the pre school.

Some of these comments are so ridiculous! Poor OP! Based on the fact that the name of the space happens to include the word wheelchair people are saying that a wheelchair user (who may have less need for it) has priority over another disabled user even if they have more need for it? Come on people! Surely you can see that's ridiculous! You're saying that the parents of children with extreme special needs or their carers either can't use public transport or they have to buy a wheelchair which may be less convenient for them! And you're reasoning for this is because of how the space on the bus happened to be named? There's also a massive ignorance about autism on here. The spectrum is so huge while some autistic kids will have no issues at all some with all the preparation in the world are going to find it massively difficult to use public transport and will need enormous support. Similarly for some wheelchair users it will be no problem to fold their chair or wait for the next bus for others this would make their journey unmanageable! Even legally it is not enforceable to mandate that a wheelchair user always gets priority and morally it's very obviously not. The person who needs the space most should use it. This will depend on the needs of the individuals wheelchair or not.

Wheelchairs or their equivalent have priority in that space. Most children with extreme special needs who need to use that space will be in a wheelchair or equivalent.

Could you ask the other buggy user to move?

On the edinburgh buses it is a rule that if a buggy is in the wheelchair space and a wheelchair user gets on then the buggy must be folded or parent is offered a receipt to get on another bus for free.

A label to say the buggy is also an aid may help, but I would be more inclined to use the additional buggy space than to deprive a wheelchair user of the bus

these threads piss me off....because posters always seem to look for a reason for why a wheelchair user should not use the .......WHEELCHAIR space. the Op IN This case is trying to not block a Wheelchair user from using the WHEELCHAIR space...but.
it doesnt matter how you dress it up, the op's son is not using a wheelchair, and whilst they should be able to use a buggy space, her son is not using a wheelchair/sn buggy, so should not use that space.
its one space on a bus for wheelchairs. of course a Wheelchair user should always get first dibs on that space.

Op if your son has a diagnosis and has been accepted into a specialist nursery then you should push for transport, contact SENTAS they were really helpful for us in negotiating home to school transport. Try not to be overwhelmed you sound like you are doing a great job.

DetectiveGoren
Sat 21-Jul-18 14:21:31
melonscoffer - And yet you didn't know that it's only adults who get PIP, that DLA is still in place for children under the age of 16. Getting DLA doesn't make you an expert on the subject, clearly

Well, hun, when we have you on here, who needs anyone else.

I'm being helpful same as everyone else. Prescise information is available from the Benefits Office. OP asked Mumsnet not the experts.

Thankfuckitsfriday1
I really hope that you can enjoy your summer and not let September overshadow any freedom you feel before the school year starts.
Sometimes it's a case of seeing how it goes when a new routine starts.
All you can do is hope for the best.

I've always found people pretty helpful and kind towards disability, even on buses!

OP, you will qualify for home to school transport as from the beginning of term if your son has an EHC Plan. The council has a statutory duty to ensure he receives the support set out in his Plan, and he won't get it unless he attends pre-school, therefore they have to ensure that he gets there.

Get in touch with the council on Monday and, if they still say he shouldn't have transport from the beginning of term, ask about their appeal procedure. You might also like to contact SENTAS (sentas.co.uk) or SOS SEN (sossen.org.uk)

How old is your other child? Could they go in a buggy board/seat on a SN buggy? Being in a sn buggy may also help your ds be able to block things out more on the bus.

I am autistic and think the OP is in the right. Just because her son is physically able to move doesn't mean he can be expected to. I wouldn't wish a meltdown on my worst enemy.

The bus company are required under the Equality Act to make reasonable adjustments for the OP's son. I think she should carry a letter from a professional or similar stating that due to her son's difficulties it is the only place on the bus that he can safely travel and that breaking the journey is not an option.